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| ONSLAUGHT 3407th Post
 
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|  "Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:23
quote:
harsh and brutal justice brought upon them.
Then it wouldn't be justice, would it?
It's always the same: An attack happens somewhere, and people jump into conclusions and claim the heads of those who did it, but they never think what made them do it. If you people want the responsibles to meet "harsh and brutal justice", or to be raped by a whale, then you're not better than them. It's because of people with this kind of mentality that leads to this shit happening all over the world. "Terrorists" are acting like this because they think a lot like you "Oh, they're invading us/killing us/messing with us/whatever, let's bomb them/blow them/behead them/etc. in response", and it's not only that, money and power is often always involved. I'm afraid this will lead to racial tension, to hate against certain minorities, conflict will breed conflict, a witch hunt will start and the government will now have "right" to attack those who it considers the enemy ("See? we have the right to attack now because they did it first" and people will agree with this), it's a vicious circle that will never end.
It sucks the attacks are never guided to those in power, to those that are responsible for this shit happening in the first place, it's sad people always suffer due to the greedy and shitty governments, but then again we're humans after all, and we're doomed to kill each other because we can't see that beyond every material possesion, race or belief, we're the same.
Oh well...
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| Red Falcon 5549th Post
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| "Re(1):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 04:33:
Everything Onsy said there is pretty much 100% agreed with. It's essentially a cycle perpetuated by people who don't actually think about WHY these things happen and try to address the problems at their roots; it's always "kill X person/people in retaliation", so it will continue until people finally learn the lesson (which, let's face it, won't ever happen) ANYWAY, back to the grind stone. They say "ignorance is bliss", but it's at the root of all of this (on both ends)
Edit: Obviously this doesn't JUSTIFY the killing of civilians, but the point is there is a much better way of combatting this than "blowing the shit out of them." What SHOULD be being fought is a perception and a belief about the West (and to a degree the Moslem world too), NOT any real organization; if "Al Qaeda is destroyed", another Al Qaeda will be along a few years later, UNLESS perceptions are radically altered (and even then such organizations will still surely exist, they just won't have the drawing power or allure). Of course, changing these perceptions would require actions which have pretty much a 0% chance of ever actually happening. Washington warned the American people of "playing favorites" with Nations in his farewell address, and now the whole Israel conflict (as well as America's general policies in the Mid-East) have come back to bite it on the ass, as well as anyone else involved.
Just as a quiz here, can any of you Americans give the year Bin Laden first issued his intifada against the U.S. and what his conditions were (and for bonus points, how many times he has attacked the U.S. or U.S. interests prior to 9/11?)
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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 04:46] |
| Red Falcon 5550th Post
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| "Re(4):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 06:00:
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And like was mentioned before, there have been bombings in France and Turkey, two nations that hardly supported the war.
Uh, the France bombings were in 1995 and were intended to force more French involvement in the war in Algeria, and the bombings in Istanbul were directed at Synagogues and the British Consulate. They were not directed at Turkish people, although many Turks died anyway (much the same as with the Kenya bombings, which were directed at U.S. interests) Not ALL bombings are triggered by the same reasons, nor are they done by the same group (Al Qaeda was not behind the 1995 France bombings, and some blame the Greater Eastern Islamic Raider's Front for the Istanbul bombings, although admittedly it seems unlikely they were entirely behind it.) Don't assume everything revolves around "the war", but I don't think you meant it that way. Mossad breaks all kinds of international laws, BTW, and if the U.S. would start Mossad-like ops and word would get out, it would be just as effective a propaganda tool as Gitmo is, currently. Israel is at the core of the whole problem and it's a prime example of exactly what Washington warned Americans about, but I'm DEFINATELY not getting any deeper in tot he Israel stuff, it's way too touchy. Besides, as a "model nation", the U.S. should make more efforts NOT to do that sort of thing; what kind of message does that send? I know this kind of thing brings out a lot of emotion in people, but they HAVE to be looked at from a logical perspective.
Edit: Quiz is still open, BTW. Anybody?
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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 06:29] |
| Red Falcon 5551th Post
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| "Re(6):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 07:50:
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I find it ridiculous that with all a terrorist organitations' power money and followers their only voice and option to sway others is to kill innocents. No change or revolution has to target innocent blood: Velvet revolution, ferdinand marcos, Cedar, Lucio Gutierrez, Ghandi, Women's rights, King. People can sway each others hearts and minds without blowing up a bus of school children. Thats a fact not a some far out ideology or a pipe. And those vile actions and thinking is what keeps their opposition on a moral high ground no matter how false the ground it is.
Christ, I'm not JUSTIFYING it, I'm just saying if you meet violence with violence, you WILL NOT STOP IT. I think the goal of people is to STOP the attacks, not just kill people in retaliation. If people actually want to STOP this, you can not just respond to every violent action with a violent action, you have to change the way of thinking that causes these kind of feelings towards the west. Look as the Israelis, they've been responding with violence for years and has it stopped suicide bombings against their country? NO, VIOLENT RETALIATION DOES NOT WORK. Why the fuck do you think the French got out of Algeria? Attacks against French interests dropped exponentially BECAUSE they didn't "give in". And what the fuck are you talking about, I didn't say "go in there and kill 'em" NOR did I say "It's okay for them to kill people", I said the exact opposite! Did you even UNDERSTAND what I said? I was responding to Mike's theory that the U.S. should use MOSSAD style tactics to counter this with some factual information about previous attacks, I wasn't SAYING "blowing up civilians is okay" NOR was I saying "killing them in retaliation" is okay. How the fuck can you break a cycle of violence if you become a part of it? Next time read the whole thread before you respond!
Best site EVER:Link Here
[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 07:55] |
| exodus 2827th Post
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| "Re(7):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 08:23:
quote:
Did you even UNDERSTAND what I said?
you need to ask that question?
the idea of hesitance towards retaliation is always viewed as either weak, a concession, or justification for whomever wronged someone, largely because people seem to be doctored to feel that way (the US gov't has done a GREAT job of making people feel this way - to the extent of our changing the word 'french' to 'freedom' in many parts of the nation for a time).
The fact remains that violence begets violence - but violence will never stop. We can and will just continue to kill each other until we're all dead. I mean...that's just how it's going to go.
The thing that bugs me is that when we blow up a hospital or something, and it's an accident, everyone shrugs. *meh, these things happen in war*
but when someone kills innocents on purpose, they're evil. I personally think that whoever gave the order to shoot a target anywhere near a non-military hospital is every bit as much of a 'terrorist.'
Plus, seriously - who's innocent anyway? who's guilty? If they blew up the parliment, would people think - oh, well at least they didn't blow up the innocents. OK, well *I* might think that, but would most people?
[edit]
a repositioning:
I find it ridiculous that with all [the united states] power, money, and followers the only voice and option to sway others is to kill [snip].
[this message was edited by exodus on Fri 8 Jul 08:26] |
| Red Falcon 5553th Post
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| "Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 08:30:
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I read the posts, but your postion just didn't seen clear imo.
Sorry, that REALLY angered me, but I'm better now. Sorry, but you were essentially putting words in my mouth. This isn't a war against a conventional enemy like in the Great War or the Second World War, conventional methods will not work. For the enemy, it's already a religious war; western powers will have to do their best to convince the Mid-East that this isn't a war against Islam, but it may already be too late. There are ANY number of things the west could do to reduce the number of attacks, but most of the options are just too ugly to face up to (I.E., withdrawing support for Israel). Truth to tell, even if the West DOES try to change the way it acts in some of these circumstances, it might very well not make any difference, this conflict has been brewing for decades. At this point, the only thing that might really be viable is to try and change the madrassis and place hope in the next generation.
Edit: Anybody? Need clues?
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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 08:43] |
| Red Falcon 5554th Post
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| "Re(2):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 10:12:
quote:
Anyone else thinking about how London just got the next (next) Olympic games? This act puts them on Terror Level Paranoid for the next seven years until the event has passed.
Ho ho, you'd better believe it! (especially considering the history of terrorist incidents at the Olympics.. who can forget the 1972 Munich hostage crisis or the more recent 1996 bombings in Atlanta?)
Edit: And it isn't like the use of religion to motivate people to violence is a new activity; frankly, most Abrahamic religious texts DO incite violence AND simultaneously speak out against it. The bible says disrespectful children should be stoned to death, just as an example (It also says blacks are destined to be slaves, this is the well-known "Curse of Ham"..every Southerner's favorite defense in antebellum America!) Christians are HISTORICALLY the worst of the bunch, all sorts of atrocities have been committed in the "name of God" from the crusades to the Inquisition to pogroms in Russia, so this isn't anything new. Nothing is better at giving people a sense of "righteousness" than religion!
Edit: Of course, this isn't meant to offend anyone, just a commentary on how dangerous religious extremism is. Just look at the abortion clinic bombings or murders of surgeons willing to perform abortions in the U.S. I've always found it amusing these people will "protect life" by killing and harassing others. There was even a list of all known surgeons willing to perform abortions floating around a few years ago; the site has been shut down for a while, but the document is still circulated amongst certain violent religious circles. Again, I'm NOT defending this, I'm just pointing out that religions and violence have a very long history with each other.
I guess the thing to worry about now is whether there will be further attacks in London. The cell responsible for this has blown its cover and is still on the loose; unless they're apprehended quickly, further attacks are probably likely.
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[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Fri 8 Jul 10:46] |
| OYashiroForever 839th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(3):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 11:38:
My condolensces to all the families who lost loved ones today. With that said, I fifth, sixth, and seventh everything said by Onsy, RF, et al. Violence begets violence and terrorism isn't going to stop until everyone's dead or humanity in general begins to evolve their way of thinking about conflict resolution. "Bring it on" they will.
quote:
Edit: And it isn't like the use of religion to motivate people to violence is a new activity; frankly, most Abrahamic religious texts DO incite violence AND simultaneously speak out against it. The bible says disrespectful children should be stoned to death, just as an example (It also says blacks are destined to be slaves, this is the well-known "Curse of Ham"..every Southerner's favorite defense in antebellum America!) Christians are HISTORICALLY the worst of the bunch, all sorts of atrocities have been committed in the "name of God" from the crusades to the Inquisition to pogroms in Russia, so this isn't anything new. Nothing is better at giving people a sense of "righteousness" than religion!
Couldn't have put it better myself... I'm a firm believer in live and let live (the only thing I hate more than hostile religious folk are hostile atheists), but monotheistic religions believe in absolutes which leave zero room for compromise or negotiation. Couple that with a belief in a flowery afterlife and the hopelessness caused by decades of poverty and you've got a never-ending line of people ready and even eager to die over pretty much nothing (land disputes and Westernization mostly... though I may jihad myself if I see one more Starbucks).
quote:
I guess the thing to worry about now is whether there will be further attacks in London. The cell responsible for this has blown its cover and is still on the loose; unless they're apprehended quickly, further attacks are probably likely.
I wouldn't bet on it. If time has proven anything, it's that terrorists are a patient bunch. They seem to wait just long enough so that people become complacent. I don't think we'll see any major terrorist activity (outside of the usual places) for a while.
Edit:quote:
As for Falcon's religions and Christianity post, I realize that you are just making a point. I would also like to point out that those who murder abortion surgeons and stuff are no more Christians than I am a Muslim.
A frequently used cop-out. They most certainly are Christians. Same with the Salem witch hunters, the inquisitors (who were far too inquisitive as Eddie Izzard would say), and every other person who's killed in the name of Jesus. Are they good Christians? You tell me. Depending on the bible verse you choose, you could easily argue either way.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
[this message was edited by OYashiroForever on Fri 8 Jul 11:51] |
| Gojira 1779th Post
Silver Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Executive
| "Re(8):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 11:55
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Wait, what happened? I've been stuck in class for 5 hours and there's no news on right now so I have no idea.
This might be of some help http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/london_bombings
I was playing Metroid Prime 2 (Godamn Sky temple keys!) and came to check the board, I don't watch news on TV and didn't check Yahoo news like always, and at first I thought this was some kind of witty remark on Iggy's part against London's Olympic victory, but when I read the replies, I knew something was wrong, I went to yahoo and the rest is history.
That link doesn't work but I found it anyway. Geez, that's terrible. My condolences to all those involved in this. Hopefully the few people that I know in London are okay.
I also thought he was talking about the Olympics, because Paris was supposed to be the front-runner for it and London got it anyway. But it seems that's not really on anyone's mind at the moment.
I seem to remember this exact same thing happening in Spain (?) not too long ago, like last year... not as fatal, but I remember seeing some video footage of people riding an escalator down into a subway and BOOM, puff of smoke. Same group? Or just copycats?
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| kofoguz
48th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 12:45:
quote:
I really just want to know how messed up you need to be to misinterpret religious texts to the point that killing innocent people nets you a place in the eternal afterlife with a harem of virgins.
I'm a muslim and i can explain that(as much as i can with my broken english)
There's a belief in our religion:
When you protect your land youll be awarded. How? -When enemy COMES into your land. Threatens your and your loved ones' LIFE, FREEDOM, HONOR then your allowed to struggle, fightback to the enemy (you cant fight out of your land if its cihad - belief war - otherwise that means MURDER and its one of big sins) And If you die as you fight to PROTECT yourself, your land etc...You named ŞEHİT/martyr and you're going to heaven directly and your honored. But fucking twisted brained terrorists use this to brainwash.
However theres some rules too. If you have hostaged an enemy-soldier and unarmed him/her, he/she must be treated as a GUEST. You hear it correctly. It is the way it should be if you really are a muslim.Also you shouldnt kill innocent people on purpose or anyway.You shouldnt harm anybody if its not the enemy.Unarmed and made harmless enemy is also defenceless and innocent.
And what those terrorist doing (they're so-called muslims)...Killing innocent people < they dont care if its children or poor-old people >, cutting hostages throats and taking in camera who is not even soldier or smthng.
About the virgin harem thing; in our religions sex before marriage is not allowed. Its a sin. Its not a big sin as much as murder though. In Türkiye most people dont took it nice but its changing. People are behaving with more tolerance. But In Middle east this issue still a taboo.So most of those guys didnt lost their virginity till they're married. The point is; they say young ignorant brains "if you do this youre going to be a ŞEHİT/martyr,youll be in heaven, you'll got whatever you want,and there will be thousands of virgin lovers will serve you Forever and ever. Seriously they brainwash young people with this.
So i believe and most of the real muslims believes that real answer is in the holy book of Islam.Young brains should not let anyone or anyhing (such as traditions not connected to religion) brainwash you.
I hope i can add smthng to this conversation.
P.S.:Any other muslim guy can tell my mistakes if im making some, since im not a "religion teacher".
here is kapadokya/cappadocia
Link Here.php?main=4&sub=1
and pamukkale
Link Here
Hi from Türkiye
[this message was edited by kofoguz on Fri 8 Jul 13:03] |
| Time Mage 2199th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Fri 8 Jul 18:57
Quiz related, since none in the US seems to know/want to post:
I remember 2 Al Quaeda attacks, apart from the WTC bombing Holiday mentioned: A motorboat-bomb crashed into a US ship, suicide style. Also, the bombings in the US embassy in... Nigeria, maybe? I don't recall the exact country, it was in Africa.
And yes, responding with violence against violence is not the answer. But being naive isn't either. The polices of all countries must investigate and cooperate, to find all the terrorist cells as possible, and bring them to justice. And when I say justice, I don't mean Guantanamo, but a decent jail and a real trial.
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| OYashiroForever 839th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(5):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 02:52
quote:
Cop out? They most certainly are not Christians. Salem witch hunters and inquisitors were not Christians. They just claimed to be so. Let me quote my previous post here: "That is to say that lots of people who claim to be Christians (or do things in the name of God) are NOT actually Christians in their words, actions, and beliefs." My main point is this: a Christian is someone who lives by the beliefs of Christianity and murderers do not live by those beliefs.
I'm well aware of what your point was. It's the same tired argument repeated ad nauseum by people who wish to disassociate themselves from the seedy history/modern extremists of their faith and can't accept the fact that monotheistic patriarchies are part of the problem.
Now allow me to clarify my point: just because they do things you and I don't think are Christian acts doesn't mean you get to withdraw their status as Christian. If they say they're Christian, they're Christian, regardless of their actions. Were the things they did un-Christlike? I would say yes... as would most Christians. Rather than simply dismissing them as crazies and taking away their membership card, though, perhaps Christians (and Muslims) should stop and examine why their supposedly benign, loving faith breeds so many people full of hate.
I'll get the ball rolling: one of the problems with Christianity (and all of the other Abrahamic faiths) is that since their scriptures were written/edited over the course of 2,000 years by hundreds of different people, each with their own voices, problems, and axes to grind, a) you can interpret those scriptures to justify just about any ridiculous act in the name of God (see slavery, mass murder, devaluing of women, homophobia, etc.) and b) they were written by primitive versions of ourselves, many of whose ideals and worldviews don't apply to modern humanity (though many Christians would be well-served by re-reading the part about "judge not lest ye be judged").
Don't mean to come off as self-righteous and/or totally down on Christians/monotheists. I may be agnostic/humanist/deist/whatever the word of the week is for non-spiritual, but I have no personal beef against those of faith and try hard not to pick fights with reasonable non-idiots. With that said, I do firmly believe that we're never going to put forth reasonable solutions to the problems of the modern world until we accept that closed-minded faith in absolutes is a deterrant to compromise and acceptance.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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| Phoenix 807th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(6):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 06:29:
quote:
I do firmly believe that we're never going to put forth reasonable solutions to the problems of the modern world until we accept that closed-minded faith in absolutes is a deterrant to compromise and acceptance.
OT:
So you're saying all monotheistic religions are obstacles to world peace. Unlike new age faiths and stuff that embrace the claim that all religions lead to the same God. Well, this is an entirely different beast and we're all free to make our own choices.
"If they say they're Christian, they're Christian, regardless of their actions."
No offence but that statement is completely illogical. I stand by my previous statement that being a Christian is determined by your words, actions, and beliefs. (all 3) There is no membership card. The status of being a "Christian" is something only known between you and God. I could be a satanist and a canibal. How would you know otherwise? Going to church, reading the Bible, praying, acting like a Christian in front of other people...none of these things mean that you are a Christian. What matters is what's in your heart. "If they say they're Christian, they're Christian no matter what they do?" No. That's like saying "if they say they're vegetarians, they're vegetarians even though they're eating juicy steaks."
Also it's not something fundamentally wrong with the beliefs of Christianity that "breeds" messed up people. It's definitely true that Christians and the church have committed many wrongs throughout history. But then they've also done lots of good. Christians are "people" and human beings are fallible. Churches are also composed of fallible beings. Christianity is a "relationship" with God. And all Christians struggle with this relationship and fall in and out of it throughout their lives. (kinda like couples do) That's what makes us human- the struggle. Some overcome this struggle but many don't.
But to place the blame of some people's mistakes upon the belief itself to claim that Christianity breeds these kinds of people is foolish. Are you really trying to say that Christianity breeds murderers and pillagers? It's the people not the belief.
[this message was edited by Phoenix on Sat 9 Jul 06:39] |
| Red Falcon 5560th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 07:06:
quote:
But they can't stay as safe from terrorists who will be willing to attack the very subway tunnels they took shelter in during those times. It will be a larger tragedy if their spirit is broken by any subsequent attacks.
Don't forget IRA bombings (who recieved most of their money from U.S. donations! The U.S. public was the IRA's number one financial supplier, and Moammar Gadhafi was their main weapons supplier. Quite a team up!)
Edit: I think Orochiyashiro is saying that Christian religious texts both extoll violence AND condemn it; it all depends on which pieces you choose to believe. It's also a living document; parts which are considered to be no longer culturally appropriate are often expunged (as the story of Lilith, or mentionings of the Behemoth and Leviathan, who are often changed to "hippo" and "crocodile" respectively in many modern versions). So DEPENDING ON WHICH PARTS of the bible you choose to obey, they're debateably good christians. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if texts of their time were considerably more forceful in terms of how to react to "heathens", as it's a consistently changing document. Also, remember that according to Catholicism, the Pope is the voice of God on Earth and has "Papal Infalliability", which means what he says becomes Church Doctrine; if he says "Destroy the Heathen", that's the official line of the Church. Can you really say people of the time were "bad Christians" when they were essentially obeying exactly what Church Doctrine dictates? Is one branch of Christianity "better" than another because they take a different interpretation of the Bible? Getting back to the "sense of righteousness" issue, has anybody read Frederick Douglass' autobiography? As he observes, "the masters who prayed the hardest were invariably the most cruel." It all gets back to the "if you believe you're right on RELIGIOUS grounds, you can do pretty much anything" concept.
For the record, my personal belief is that there IS probably some sort of god or god-like beings out there; every religion humans have created is wrong, IMO.(humans DO create religions; Judaism and thus Christianity borrows heavily from Zoroastrianism, and the Hebrews were originally a polytheistic people anyway; they changed to a monotheistic people as their lifestyle changed and they became town-builders rather than nomadic sheep herders; their war-god "Yaweh" eventually became their sole God and his roles changed, although they still included a heavy dose of violence. Most of the Abrahamic religions are "elitist" in that "only those who follow will achieve salvation"; this was essentially a tool created by the Hebrews to make themselves feel better about how they were consistently trampled by all of the technologically superior peoples who surrounded them) Now, I KNOW this post will offend some people, but that's not my intent, and I recognize religions are capable of good, too. Just think of this as the observations of a neutral party on why religious fervor can be very dangerous.
Best site EVER:Link Here
[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Sat 9 Jul 08:29] |
| OYashiroForever 840th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(7):Re(10):Mmmmhh..." , posted Sat 9 Jul 16:34
This will be my last post on the matter... it almost feels disrespectful to quarrel over minutia given the original subject.
quote:
No offence but that statement is completely illogical. I stand by my previous statement that being a Christian is determined by your words, actions, and beliefs.
And I stand by my response that that's the standard cop-out used to disassociate yourself from the less desirable elements of Christianity.
quote:
The status of being a "Christian" is something only known between you and God.
I see. So how exactly does that disprove my "If they say they're Christian, they're Christian" point? Do you know who's talking to God and who's not? If you're one of the new-wave, "personal relationship with Jesus" Christians that don't particularly care about dogma, then you have no right to judge who's Christian and who's not. If Jesus told them to kill people, who are you to say they're wrong? If you don't, then I'm pretty sure you're making that assessment based on the teachings of the bible, which we've already discussed as being contradictory and highly unreliable for point-proving.
My point: monotheistic religions deal in the language of absolutes (black and white, good and evil, us and them) and circular logic and are counter-productive when you're trying to solve complex problems in the real world where there's more gray than anything else.
That and I'm bitter because they single-handedly destroyed human sexuality. ;)
Once again, I'm not trying to dump on any one faith and certainly not you in particular, Phoenix. You seem like a decent enough guy and I'm sure your faith helps you in your day to day life in some way. I've spent so many years studying the cultural and historical aspects of religion (which fascinate me to no end) that it's difficult to gather any sort of enthusiasm for spirituality.
"Only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
"Your denial is beneath you and thanks to the use of hallucinogenic drugs I see through you."
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