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| Korigama
75th Post
 
Occasional Customer
  
|  "So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups..." , posted Fri 5 Aug 23:48:
Am I the only one annoyed by the upcoming wave of creatively bankrupt tripe developers are putting out in an attempt to increase interest in the genre?
As far as I'm concerned, every so-called beat'em-up in the works (Final Fight: Streetwise, Beat Down, Urban Reign, The Warriors, and Crime Life) looks every bit as dull and uninspired as the next. As a result, I expect absolutely nothing in the way of anything interesting to be contributed to the genre anytime soon, and in fact, I see this trend only leading to it regressing, ensuring that nothing even close to a revival comes about. Of course, this is just my opinion, so perhaps there are more people that are actually thrilled with the direction being taken with these games than I think there are...
[this message was edited by Korigama on Fri 5 Aug 23:49] |
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| catalyst
61th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 00:11
quote:
Am I the only one annoyed by the upcoming wave of creatively bankrupt tripe developers are putting out in an attempt to increase interest in the genre?
As far as I'm concerned, every so-called beat'em-up in the works (Final Fight: Streetwise, Beat Down, Urban Reign, The Warriors, and Crime Life) looks every bit as dull and uninspired as the next. As a result, I expect absolutely nothing in the way of anything interesting to be contributed to the genre anytime soon, and in fact, I see this trend only leading to it regressing, ensuring that nothing even close to a revival comes about. Of course, this is just my opinion, so perhaps there are more people that are actually thrilled with the direction being taken with these games than I think there are...
Really in my opinion, I think that overtime from our first taste of Final fight and towards double dragon and so forth with other games our tastes in gaming improved. Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.
I mean personally, If anyone could confirm this for me that would be great but, wasn't the bouncer supposed to have interactive backgrounds? All to the point where you could run to the walls performing jackie chan esque style stuns or throwing people into objects into the background? Thats what got me back into the genre, then I bought the game and was heavily disappointed. Personally thats what I would like to see more in a beat em up.
Though I guess really in the line end of things of beat em ups being uninspired I guess thats how the cookie crumbles persay since they are really simple with one objective. I love the beat em up genre but I honestly you could only do so much to it then, thats it.
"Have some confidence in me Pris--the odds are only two against one." -- Cole Cash "Grifter"
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| Korigama
76th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(2):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 00:34:
quote:
Really in my opinion, I think that overtime from our first taste of Final fight and towards double dragon and so forth with other games our tastes in gaming improved. Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.
I mean personally, If anyone could confirm this for me that would be great but, wasn't the bouncer supposed to have interactive backgrounds? All to the point where you could run to the walls performing jackie chan esque style stuns or throwing people into objects into the background? Thats what got me back into the genre, then I bought the game and was heavily disappointed. Personally thats what I would like to see more in a beat em up.
Though I guess really in the line end of things of beat em ups being uninspired I guess thats how the cookie crumbles persay since they are really simple with one objective. I love the beat em up genre but I honestly you could only do so much to it then, thats it.
True, a lot more is expected these days, but therein lies another point: developers not only failing to create something with a sense of style or atmosphere (such as what was present with the Streets of Rage series), but failing to evolve the gameplay. Part of how this could be done would be to incorporate elements of the closest related genre, fighters, which worked quite well for refining the gameplay of Devil May Cry 3, despite it, of course, not being a beat'em-up. One example of what could evolve the gameplay of beat'em-ups is another element present in fighters, the distinction between low and overhead attacks (which has yet to be done, based on what I've observed), as well as providing an incentive to mix up attacks, which, again, is something that DMC3 saw fit to do.
Aside from the actual fighting, putting more of an emphasis on story would help, but at the same time, keeping the focus on the action. Occasionally changing up game mechanics for special sections of the game could also work to positive effect. Something that should be kept, however, is a more linear path for procession, leaving things open just enough to have a little explorative freedom, but nothing along the lines of the GTA-type roaming present in the upcoming beat'em-ups (which, as I see, only serves to promote a loss of focus).
As for The Bouncer, yes, originally, there was supposed to be a lot more to it, including in the way of environmental interaction, but it never happened. I was very much disappointed in how The Bouncer turned out, winding up having the style and the atmosphere necessary for making it stand out, but not having the gameplay necessary to keep it interesting. Furthermore, though having plenty of story was nice, more time is spent watching it than playing it, which makes things even worse.
[this message was edited by Korigama on Sat 6 Aug 00:58] |
| Shin Ramberk
160th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 00:54
I'd like a good beat'em up. Someone show me a good beat'em please!
I remember when I was in middle school/junior high, I'd love to play TMNT2 on my NES. This was the arcade port of TMNT for the NES. And this was a very basic style beat'em. But it was so much fun.
Those were the days.
Actually if you guys want a good beat'em. Play X-Men Legends. Destructable environment, team work, light strategy, light RPG elements, good storyline, very large cast of characters to choose from, easy but complex, good variety of villains and bosses, good difficulty. WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR.
Go buy the new Warlock series by Marvel. It is good support this title!
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| exodus 2891th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
    
 
| "Re(6):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 06:28
quote:
Now, wait, what is the difference between a hack and slash and a beat em up?
roughly, I'd say a pure beat em up is something you can only do in 2D, where you have per-pixel precision, like a 2D fighting game with a 3rd plane of movement. Past that it's a 3D beat em up.
a hack and slash I consider to be a largely 3D creation, like dynasty warriors or sengoku basara, in which fighting is not based on distance, but timing. enemies will always be around you, it's a matter of when you swing your sword. these games also tend to have you fighting in all directions at once, with your weapons swinging around you, whereas beat em ups have you fighting and comboing in one direction.
does that sound reasonable?
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| Baines
126th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 15:26:
quote:
Looking at final fight streetwise persay would probably just be a minor upgrade in what a beat em has to offer besides the typical wave after wave of enemies.
One of the descriptions I read of Streetwise said you still fought enemies in waves.
quote:
I mean personally, If anyone could confirm this for me that would be great but, wasn't the bouncer supposed to have interactive backgrounds?
The original description of The Bouncer sounded pretty much matched a description of Powerstone, with phrases like "fights that look just like a Hollywood action movie" thrown into the mix.
Beat'em-ups in 3D so far have only really been successful in the Sengoku Musou mold, where increasing the enemy counts makes up for the lack of depth in the average beat'em-up engine. (And collectibles, leveling, free play of any of a large number of missions, and other aspects fight the longevity problem that classic beat'em-ups would have in today's market.)
X-Men Legends is a fun game, but even it fails on the replay aspect as well as the multiplayer ease aspect. (Strange for a game designed specifically with four player in mind to have half the missions force 1-3 players instead.) Personally, I could ask for a lot more from Legends. Free selection of all completed mission in the Danger Room with all characters available would be a start, and a player-adjustable difficulty slide for those missions would be the next (preferably not only with increases in hp/damage, but also more enemies and even some changes in enemies.) Legends really hurts in the replayable aspect, with alternate costumes being the only reward for starting over. Some of the characters are available only briefly, and there is nothing to do once you beat Master Mold but start over or quit.
And as someone else said, hack 'n slash is an description that really just means violence over thinking or role-playing or even much story. A hack 'n slash doesn't actually require weapons, though being primarily a fantasy game term weapons are generally assumed.
[this message was edited by Baines on Sat 6 Aug 15:33] |
| Mosquiton 1670th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Mon 8 Aug 05:26:
About hack and slash... I'd say this is a term that can be applied to action games in general that fit certain criteria, and isn't necessarily limited to certain sub-genres. It implies a certain mindlessness and an absence of any notable activities outside combat. The phrase is often rendered as 'mindless hack and slash', and is epitomized in games such as Gauntlet: Dark Legacy, Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, and Diablo.
That's just my working definition.
I really think you need weapons for a 'hack and slash' though. I can't think of any game I'd consider hack and slash without...
But as for beat 'em ups, you can beat a guy up with the assistance of weapons (or even guns, as in Capcom's Alien vs Predator. At any rate, I think that technique may be one of the crucial things that separates a beat 'em up from a hack and slash in my mind.
And speaking of beat 'em ups with weapons I'd like to take this opportunity to tell everyone that PIRATES OF DARK WATER for the SNES is a pretty damn excellent example of the genre... with weapons! Very unoriginal in most respects, but it does let you throw a strong weapon hit anytime you like, which can also be linked into combos. It's quite a fun game really... I need to look into who made it (haven't played it in many years).
But seriously, check it out. I played the hell out of the game with my bro back in the day. Great fun.
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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Mon 8 Aug 05:40] |
| CHAZumaru
197th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Re:So many sorry excuses for beat'em-up" , posted Tue 9 Aug 07:30
quote:
Since when have people stopped calling 2D Fighters "beat'em-ups"?
this was only ever done in europe, where everything's backwards anyway. And I think they actually stopped doing it there a while ago, cept maybe in france.
No. In france the usual term for 2D (and 3D) fighters is "jeu de baston". Beat'em ups are usually refered to as beat'em all for a reason so stupid it had to be added in Wikipedia last sunday. I am not messing with you.
But Brandon, honestly, look back at your old issues of Gamepro: everyone in the western world called fighters "beat'em ups" in the days of Street Fighter II, around 1991. The difference between regular beat'em ups and fighters was still unclear for a short period of time, and fighters were seen by most people as an evolution of beat'em ups where you'd jump straight to the boss. Most early fighters of the era felt like that - such as SNK's first challengers to SFII, Garou Densetsu and Ryuuko no Ken, which were much more focused on the solo game than on multiplayer versus. Multiplayer versus was a natural addition, but it's success was almost an accident. Nobody at the time thought it would become the most important aspect of fighters. Of course, with the ongoing success of SFII and it's multiplayer competition scene, things became more clear. But if you check back fighting games from 1991/1992, you can perceive how puzzled game designers were with what should be the main interest of fighters and how different they are from beat'em ups*. Another clear example of that situation is Sega's policy to counter the buzz around the SFII port on the Super Famicom. The game they chose was Bare Knuckles II, pushing much PR efforts on the fact it also had a versus mode and special moves just like that other beat'em up on the SFC which you guys don't need then kthanks.
*You can find a form of inheritance of this era in games like Metamoqester and Warzard
NOW IS TIME TO THE 68000 Z80 AND SH-2 HEART ON FIRE !!
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"Re(4):So many sorry excuses for beat'em-ups.." , posted Sat 6 Aug 03:41:
