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| nobinobita
92th Post
 
Occasional Customer
  
|  "Re(1):Another SF II Release(HD this time)" , posted Sun 15 Apr 17:46
quote:
Here is a sample from a Capcom slideshow
Link Here
I'm wishing for the best, but that sprite comparisson is making me real nervious. It's like I made a wish on a monkey's paw and it's come true but gone wrong. Street Fighter is in Hi-res, but it's being drawn by UDON?
I apologize ahead of time to anyone that truly enjoys Udon's art. I really respect them for how far they've gone in chasing their dreams. It's especially impressive considering how young they are, however I don't think their work has ever been up to par with actual Capcom work.
And i'm not just being a stuffy purist. I honestly believe that low res sprite in that picture is more skillyfully made than the hi-res one.
In spite of how dated it looks, it still conveys a three dimensional form really well. It has really good coloring that shows careful deliberation over the placement of each pixel. There is nice variation in value, especially along the outlines. Ryu's gi has well conveyed planar forms that imply soft cloth falling over a body underneath.
The new sprite looks good at first glance, but falls apart under scrutiny. It's not a very careful translation of the old sprite, inspite of having been traced from it.
Just look at the gi in the new picture. It is waaay starchy and tubelike. It does not feel like a soft flowing gi at all. It was drawn by a person who did not think carefully about how cloth falls and folds. Whoever inked it made the mistake of using a solid black line on the interior fold of the left leg giving it way more weight and depth than it should have. The colorist also forgot to extend the shadow on that pant leg down to the tip of the opening making it look arbitrary rather than planar.
The upper body looks much better but it's still not perfect. Ryu's front bicep extends around his arm too much and makes it look too bulbous (although to be fair all the old SF2 sprites tended to look kinda bulbous). Also, his pectoral muscle is way too small. The best part of that image is the face, which was basically copied from Edayan's art on the GBA port of Super Turbo.
And I don't mind that part. That part was copied well enough (though I'm not a fan of the random dark line in his cheek/jaw). What I do mind is that the rest of it was not copied or updated well.
I know I sound like a complete douchebag right now, but this is a real Street Fighter game I am talking about. If it were an Udon comic or a random fan art I'd say the picture is just fine. But as a sprite for a real game, that puts it up against all the wonderful art produced by Capcom's incredibly artists from the previous Street Fighter games. And it does not compare favorably in my overlong oppinion.
Before you disagree with me take care to remember just how incredible official Street Fighter art looks:
http://www.newwavemugen.com/%7Ezweifuss/makoto/makoto.htm
http://fightingstreet.com/folders/downloadsfolder/RyuWP.jpg
Someone needs to find Bengus, Akiman, Kinu, Ikeno, and Edayan and chain them to a drafting table until all the graphics for this new game are done.
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| Recap
68th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(2):Think twice." , posted Sun 15 Apr 20:40:
quote:
Hmm? I'm confused. Definitely fearing anything that the hateful Capcom USA touches makes sense, but isn't the idea that Udon often goes for a pseudo-Japanese comics art style, whereas the original Street Fighter II had weird American Comics-style art that reminds me of action figures or GI Joe? Seems more a case of アメコミ into 和風, but I could be wrong.
American pseudo-Japanese is still ame-komi style, if you ask me, and usually pretty ugly. I pretty much agree with Nobita - the Udon artist just aren't in the same league of Bengus, Edayan, etc. And, what's worse, they're changing totally the style.
Anyway, we should be differentiating illustrations/chara design and sprite art. It's true that the original SF (and SFII, even) artwork is a bit "americanized" (much like most arcade art of those days) and that the series changed that with the time, but we're talking here about "sprite art", and that always was very Japanese. The Japanese knew how to draw sprites like no other, indeed, and Capcom was one of the best examples there:
http://ranobe.com/up/src/up185303.png
That just doesn't need an "upgrade" to look superb, and I honestly don't believe that a higher rez could benefit that sprite style. Then again, redrawing is the only way to make it look decent on current consoles and TVs, I suppose.
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My main concern is that it appears to be using high res CG instead of high res pixel art(unlike games like KOF 94 or odin's sphere).
Using CG for animation in games was used mainly in flash games, so it does leave a dreadful feeling.
It's indeed "high res pixel art". It's using the same technique as Re-Bout - they take the old sprites, upscale them digitally and redraw them from there. It looks more like a "real" illustration because the resolution is very high. That's exactly the point here - the resolution. Low res means "scanlines" ("pixels"), making of those graphics a very different thing to high-res ones, both in presentation and, presumably, conception.
They're not using "CG" for animation, by the way. They'll leave the original frames.
quote:
Here's David Sirlin's blog/webpage, http://www.sirlin.net/, who is the man behind this new SSFIIT as well as the producer of Capcom Classic Collection 1 and 2. He is a long time SF competitive player, linked to the EVO staff, and has a great web, complete with very interesting articles and opinions. In his last blog entry, he talks a bit about this new SSFIIT project.
Nice link, but if he's the responsible of the Capcom Classic Collections, he's just not competent enough. The news gets worse indeed.
Edit: Link!
[this message was edited by Recap on Sun 15 Apr 20:50] |
| Zepy 1344th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
   
    
    
 
| "Re(3):Think twice." , posted Sun 15 Apr 23:51
quote:
It's indeed "high res pixel art". It's using the same technique as Re-Bout - they take the old sprites, upscale them digitally and redraw them from there. It looks more like a "real" illustration because the resolution is very high. That's exactly the point here - the resolution. Low res means "scanlines" ("pixels"), making of those graphics a very different thing to high-res ones, both in presentation and, presumably, conception.
Nono it has nothing to do with resolution, pixel art means you hit the pixels in by hand or ドット打ち, instead of making an illustration and putting it into pixels, which looks like what they are doing.
I don't remember any success stories regarding converting illustrations into in-game animation for a fighting game, I think there probably were but I can't remember any.(But it would be awesome if somebody brings up examples)
Oh there was Glove on fight and RBO, but they were more like flash games than anything.
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| Recap
68th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(4):Think twice." , posted Mon 16 Apr 03:52
quote:
Nono it has nothing to do with resolution, pixel art means you hit the pixels in by hand or ドット打ち, instead of making an illustration and putting it into pixels, which looks like what they are doing.
Per-pixel-based only techniques were abandoned back in the 80's, when the video hardware got power enough to handle sprites with a reasonable number of pixels and colors. That is, most of the sprites in post-80's video-games were drawn/designed (and usually colored) on paper, and later they're digitalized. Obviously after that they had to do the pixel treatment, but rarely they designed the sprites (and all their frames) directly with the computer (unless it's prerrendered stuff, like Cave's).
quote:
They're obviously using a different technique for that slide, but keep in mind this is a very early quick-and-dirty example, and it hasn't been touched up or cleaned in the slightest like is so common in this process. It may not have been done to show the quality of the sprites but rather just the size. So I don't think criticizing how it looks there is going to get you anywhere right now.
The style they're choosing is perfectly visible, though, and that's what I was criticizing. As I said, SF is not about ame-komi.
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| Nobinobita
93th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(7):Think twice." , posted Mon 16 Apr 06:51
quote:
So, the art style isn't exactly the same as the original game - yeah, that's one of the things I like about it.
My problem isn't that it doesn't look like the original. My problem is that the game doesn't look like Capcom, it looks like Udon.
What I mean is that it looks like it was done by people trying to ape Capcom's style, but they don't have the basic drawing skills to really pull it off. Udon is full of young talented people, but they have a looong way to go if they want to ever get as good as any of the legendary Capcom artists.
The main difference between Capcom and Udon is just tens of thousands of hours of experience in drawing. The Udon guys just need to draw more, really hone their skills. They need to first learn how to draw a body and face and keep it on model. They need to learn how to do poses that have weight and read as realistic. They then need to learn about how to render things with non arbitrary light sources, color saturatioons and line weights.
After all that, then they can worry about style (which should have developed organically in the process of learning anyway).
I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T be doing what they're doing. It's amazing how far they've come and it would be foolish to turn down any of this work. At the same time I wish they would try to improve and one day match the standards that Capcom used to have.
Just look at Arnold Tseng's new art:
http://arnistotle.deviantart.com/
He's improved TREMENDOUSLY since he started at Udon... Of course, alot of this improvement seemed to happen AFTER he left Udon.
Again, I'm sorry for being so negative, but this is something i feel VERY strongly about. I love Capcom art. Capcom is one of the main reasons I have chosen to do art for a carreer so it is deeply disturbing for me to see the artwork representing Street Fighter take a step backward instead of forward.
But then again, at least Udon is keeping it alive and going.
And also, to their credit, I know people that work for them and I understand that they work under tremendous pressure, tight deadlines and very little pay. So again, it's very commendable that they can produce anything worth looking at at all.
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| Recap
71th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(2):!!" , posted Mon 16 Apr 23:43:
quote:
Recap: Why that's so inconceivable?
I've been saying it from the beginning - 'cause that redrawn Ryu sprite has an unquestionable ame-komi style which just would never be used by Japanese artists (we could add here that Japanese would never use other companies' works as comprison material for an official presentation, but whatever).
quote:
At least Capcom is doing a proper HD treatment, unlike the poor KOF94 Rebout attempt, made by a Japanese company.
The former is true and I'm really looking forward to it, at least just for curiousity (though it's not "Capcom" but "Capcom USA"). As for the Re-Bout thing, that was actually a true hi-res remake (the sprites, at least), and never a "HD attempt". It's a PS2 game after all. Though we'll come to agree that it was poor, especially if we consider the backgrounds and whatnot. Japanese, but amateurish.
[this message was edited by Recap on Tue 17 Apr 00:16] |
| Baines
183th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(10):Think twice." , posted Tue 17 Apr 02:32
quote:
You know what? I'm sure that if they had showed the exact same image example, but said the game was being developed in Japan and the sprites made by Japanese artists, everyone would be praising it, throwing love and joy everywhere, instead of making nonsensical critics about the shadows of Ryu's pants.
Totally sure.
I agree with you. If people didn't know it was Udon and Capcom of America, they'd be saying how great it was, with the exact same art.
Indeed, on some boards the response *is* positive, excepting the complaints that it is still just another repackage of SSF2T rather than a new game. And a few people who question what it will look like in action, combining hi-res sprites with the animation of SF2. And being online download only. And a few people who say the prior SSF2T port was done poorly. And all sorts of other things unrelated to the new images themselves.
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| EddyT 566th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD this time)" , posted Tue 17 Apr 18:24
quote:
At least Capcom USA has their head where the money and fan favor is at. Capcom Japan is stupid, SF franchise hasn't had a game in years yet its got a best selling comic, toy line, anime film, and other various merchandise. You don't see "dead" franchises pulling in cash like that.
While it may not be a "new" SF game, it is at least something fresh to please us SF fans salivating for something more than another compilation package.
I agree... SF is still much alive and kicking.
I felt that it was extremely harsh that they just gave up on the license and gave it to the US division of Capcom. When that happened, it made me lose all hope on a proper SF sequel. I will never understand why they insist that 2D gaming is dead... with the addition of hi-def TVs showing so much more detail, I feel that this could be the start of a new 2D revolution. Redone games are nice and all, but bringing a new fighter to the table, redrawn for higher resolutions... I still think that could make a pretty penny if marketed right and the game engine was solid. But who's going to make the first step? The ball is out there fumbling around, yet nobody is willing to strike out and take a crack at it.
I know that having the US division of Capcom handle new twists to SF games seems pretty odd and quite awkward, but really... it's all we've got nowadays. Better than what we have received before XBL, which is next to nothing.
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| hikarutilmitt 384th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(9):Another SF II Release(HD this time)" , posted Wed 18 Apr 02:30
quote:
Why bother with the whole thing, anyway?
because their last one was one of the best selling XBLA titles ever - the fans voted with their dollars and Capcom read it as "people like street fighter II" instead of "people like 2D fighters", unfortunately. But it could be a step to something.
I dunno, I think anyone who looks at sales of such things could tell it was certainly more SF2 than 2D fighters in general. I haven't heard too much about ridiculously high sales on, say, Mortal Kombat.
The game sold well because of all the people that played the SNES version and think they're the best at the game because they could beat all of their friends at it as well as the people who play the game far more frequently (tourney people).
Personally, I think we should just wait and see what happens with this thing, anyway, before we go bitching and moaning about "Oh! Ryu's arm is lacking a muscle definition line here! Oh, it's not at the right resolution! OMG UDON'S ART SUCKS!!!!" and the like.
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| Red Falcon 5776th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
     
 
| "Re(9):Another SF II Release(HD this time)" , posted Wed 18 Apr 03:00:
quote:
But one thing I want to point out is that people are talking about this being a Capcom USA title - it's true that Capcom USA is producing it, but the game is being developed by Backbone Entertainment. That's who David Sirlin works for (he's a casual friend of mine anyway, so I hope he'll do a good job).
My point was it's a waste of time and effort, ST is perfect as it is and needs no changes, let alone a pointless cosmetic one like this. I'm sure it'll be an okay product, as the Classics collection version of ST is probably the best at-home version of the game barring usage of a supergun and a PCB (although vs. mode still has a few funny things...) and I believe Sirlin worked on that, but my original statement still stands: "why bother?" As the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Still, I guess if is it just a shallow money-grubbing attempt relying on stupid "MY HONDA IS THE BEST EVAR" and then proceeding to just mash punch type players, maybe it isn't such a bad idea for them in that sense.
Actually, I can think of TWO changes I'd like in ST... take out Gouki and Old Sagat, haw haw.
Edit: Hope I didn't come over as too grouchy, but I love my ST, ha ha.
 Best site EVER:Link Here
[this message was edited by Red Falcon on Wed 18 Apr 03:06] |
| Ishmael 2797th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD this time)" , posted Wed 18 Apr 05:29
Yes, I know I'm talking in circles and should really stop posting in this thread. Please indulge me.
The reason I can't get too worked up over this alteration to ST is that there are so many variations on SF2 that I can't point to any one game and declare that it represents everything that is the SF2 experience. Between all the official versions, the Rainbow and other hacks, those crazy live action versions and more there are, what, a dozen SF2 games? Since all of those games were put on the market to make money I can't begrudge this latest SF2 it's place in the roster as well.
quote:
Actually, I can think of TWO changes I'd like in ST... take out Gouki and Old Sagat, haw haw.
Can we pitch the US difficulty settings as well?
Also, seeing Time Mage's avatar makes me wish that more could be done with Balrog/Bison's win quotes. If Capcom can release an entire game built around Mike Tyson quotes the least they could do is give their first Tyson game reference a few more loony lines. Then again, I suspect the programmers are going to be focused on more important aspects of the game.
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| Pollyanna 2204th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD this t" , posted Wed 18 Apr 12:49
quote:
- That Capcom's "interpretation" improved over the original in some way.
Now this is what I call bullshit.
Where's the improvement? It was different, but in no way an improvement over the original.
I'm inclined to agree (with Onslaught). Also, with Marvel characters, "original" is relative, since the characters are always being drawn by different artists in different ways. Maybe I just don't understand.
Speaking of comics and in-game art, I think if you pit Udon artists against Japanese Street Fighter comic artists, they come out ahead. However, if you pit either against Capcom's best illustrators, they both fall short.
Personally, I don't see the old SF II sprites as exceptional by today's standards, but that doesn't change the relative mediocrity of the new look.
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| crazymike 1291th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Re(10):Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD" , posted Wed 18 Apr 17:21:
quote:
Early SF art weren't all that great. But the standard has been raised.
Udon work is good, if compared with other doujin art.
But compared with official Capcom artists, they just fall short
I think it is all subjective. As a graphic design major who thinks he isn't good enough to be an illustration major, I still get comments from the average joe-blow crowd who says "oh that is sooo good!" I don't get why they like my work but they do.
I really don't think I've figured out what makes a "good" illustrator I mean I see all the time stick figure-like illustrations that win awards. Are they technical genius? No, but they have their own visual style.
Now what I will say negative about Udon is that their style, while maybe proficiently skillful technical wise, does not exhibit emotion or a unique style.
However, in the context of this project, that is not necessary. Artists like Akiman's work would not project well into sprites because his work is naturally silky and soft, bordering between abstraction and realism. His soft contours would not translate well either for in-between motion frames, you would end up likely with a scrachy looking movement.
Most of his work is centered on a unique pose and a setting that cannot be translated well into a naturally boring profile pose of Ryu throwing a hadouken. However, Udon's sharp-edged comic-style work is well suited for in-game art.
If anything, the totality of this project should be commended because no game design company has experimented with producing ultra-high resolution artwork as sprites. Imagine if IGA took this route with the next Castlevania.
[this message was edited by crazymike on Wed 18 Apr 17:22] |
| Saiki
228th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD" , posted Thu 19 Apr 00:33
quote:
I think it is all subjective. As a graphic design major who thinks he isn't good enough to be an illustration major, I still get comments from the average joe-blow crowd who says "oh that is sooo good!" I don't get why they like my work but they do.
I really don't think I've figured out what makes a "good" illustrator I mean I see all the time stick figure-like illustrations that win awards. Are they technical genius? No, but they have their own visual style.
Now what I will say negative about Udon is that their style, while maybe proficiently skillful technical wise, does not exhibit emotion or a unique style.
However, in the context of this project, that is not necessary. Artists like Akiman's work would not project well into sprites because his work is naturally silky and soft, bordering between abstraction and realism. His soft contours would not translate well either for in-between motion frames, you would end up likely with a scrachy looking movement.
Most of his work is centered on a unique pose and a setting that cannot be translated well into a naturally boring profile pose of Ryu throwing a hadouken. However, Udon's sharp-edged comic-style work is well suited for in-game art.
If anything, the totality of this project should be commended because no game design company has experimented with producing ultra-high resolution artwork as sprites. Imagine if IGA took this route with the next Castlevania.
Of course art is subjective.
But one of the problems with Udon is they're comic book illustrators trying real hard to draw with a more SF'ish/Japanese manga style art.
And alot of there artwork lacks any movement or emotion in there comics.
Also, their artwork lacks any sort of definition or life. If you took the colors away, you could really see how mediocre there artwork is.
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| Pollyanna 2208th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD" , posted Thu 19 Apr 04:59:
quote:
But crazymike has a point: maybe their style is the most suited to make videogame sprites. I doubt that choosing Udon was because of that, though.
Well, it depends on what kind of sprites you want to make. If you look at the SF3 sprites, they match up fairly well with the illustrations by Kinu, Ikeno and Akiman. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the SF3-style sprites, which reflect the artwork of some of Capcom's best artists so well are most appropriate for the series.
However, creating sprites like that would be a huge undertaking, and while I don't think the less detailed Udon style reflects SFII as I know it , it's not a bad alternative for the project. (I think a similar style would work much better for a SFZ remake).
For the record, I don't think the sprites look BAD. I think it's a decent attempt, and it beats nothing... but as Zepy feared, I think it may turn out looking like a flash game, thanks to the extremely "flat" style of the art.
[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Thu 19 Apr 05:16] |
| Pollyanna 2212th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Re(10):Re(10):Another SF II Release(HD" , posted Fri 20 Apr 06:29:
quote:
Polly: Do you think that 2D isn't ready for HD yet? I mean, we're all used to pixel-based art... for us to witness something as clean as this, how does any company attempt to make a 2D game without it looking "flat" or "fake"?
Well, I think Guilty Gear and Hokuto no Ken are close enough to give us some idea. The Guilty Gear sprites look surprisingly good for how simplistic they are. I'm sure someone can completely discredit this opinion with some large collection of numbers and abbreviations that I've never heard before, though.
But the point is, I can't say "2D isn't ready", because it's a matter of how much money, effort and talent goes into it, not if it's technically viable. It's the same as HD with 3D games. If you have crappy renders, it doesn't matter how shiny and crisp they are...it'll only make their flaws more evident. It's not until recently that the concept of HD gaming has been very appealing to me...and it wasn't until Blue Dragon that I got really excited.
Edit: This is more related to my previous post, but looking at the 3rd Strike sprites again, I was wrong. They aren't really that detailed, they're just really expertly drawn. I guess they do a good job of "implying detail" or something.
[this message was edited by Pollyanna on Sat 21 Apr 07:50] |
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"Re(1):Think twice." , posted Sun 15 Apr 04:03
still look squatty and bizarre? What will the backgrounds look like? Will E.Honda still have fifty to sixty teeth in his head on the verses sceen? Will the characters get individual shadows and getting set on fire animation? These and other silly questions are the sort of thing that have me excited about this game. 
"bread bread BREAD BREAD BREAD BREAD" , posted Tue 17 Apr 00:33
