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| Undead Fred 2963th Post
 
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
    
     
|  "Re(5):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 29 Jan 15:58
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But changes do need to come to the market. Be it on the fansub side, or on the DVD side. As much as Japan hates it, the US market really can't support single volume TV series releases anymore. And unless they wake up to the fact the cash flow they need from the US market will dissapear....
Also, it'd help if they stopped releasing so much crap too. The volume and lack of quality of the product is getting pretty bad. For every 3-4 great series you get about 10 decent to okay ones and a pile of bad ones. It seems like every manga /game gets a TV series even if they don't deserve it...-.-
Honestly, I hope they DON'T follow after the US and start cranking out anime that go on and on until the well runs dry and everyone is sick of it. That's one of the things that really appealed to me about anime was that series would END at some point. Sure, some had "second seasons" or spin-offs or whatever you want to call it, but at least a large majority (of what I've seen) don't keep going until they run it into the ground. Airmaster? Fun show, done. Azumanga? Awesome show, done. Cowboy Bebop? Great show, done. Throw an extra movie in here and there and keep it at that.
I'm sure the lack of quality thing you mentioned is just more noticeable these days since the exposure's so much higher. We're more aware of these shows now, so we're catching more than just the classics overseas... It's not hard to believe that there were duds in the past. They just weren't successful enough to make it out of Japan.
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| Satoshi_Miwa 2815th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 29 Jan 16:41
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Honestly, I hope they DON'T follow after the US and start cranking out anime that go on and on until the well runs dry and everyone is sick of it. That's one of the things that really appealed to me about anime was that series would END at some point. Sure, some had "second seasons" or spin-offs or whatever you want to call it, but at least a large majority (of what I've seen) don't keep going until they run it into the ground. Airmaster? Fun show, done. Azumanga? Awesome show, done. Cowboy Bebop? Great show, done. Throw an extra movie in here and there and keep it at that.
I'm sure the lack of quality thing you mentioned is just more noticeable these days since the exposure's so much higher. We're more aware of these shows now, so we're catching more than just the classics overseas... It's not hard to believe that there were duds in the past. They just weren't successful enough to make it out of Japan.
They have been churning out anime chasing after the US market. After the Cartoon Network boom you'll notice the amount of shows being produced exploding. A lot of them being done so they can both get the Japanese DVD sales and the lucrative US sales too. Around 03/04 it was really bad, as almost everything was getting picked up.
See, that's the big kicker about all of this too. The Japanese anime industry is also do for a major correction too. Too many shows on TV, and not enough stuff pulling it's weight. Your going to start seeing some of the smaller studios go out of business soon. (Part of the reason Geneon left the US was due to the market shift and future market shift in Japan). Throw in censorship concerns and a bit to much Moe on TV and you've got a bubble that will probably burst big time soon...
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| Pollyanna 2424th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 29 Jan 16:43
For the record, I work for several companies, but I've never had an official interview. The best way to get in is through the back door, so to speak.
Though it might be worth mentioning that a friend/coworker of mine was once told "if I had known you were an anime fan, I wouldn't have hired you".
So yeah, being a "snarky elitist" is a good way not to get hired. But honestly, I'm cheery, energetic and a bit shy in person. If you try to "rock the boat" too much at work, you get fired. The entertainment industry especially is full of people who only tell you what you want to hear and expect everyone else to extend them the same courtesy. I would say that's one reason why ADV might be in trouble. Their failure to secure TV deals is another.
But as people have said, it really is Japan's fault. They treat US companies like crap. They overcharge them, they make them buy crap series before they'll sell them the rights to good ones, and they withhold necessary materials (like masters!) for months and they insist on nonsensical "official" English names.
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| Baines
215th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(6):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Wed 30 Jan 10:07
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I haven't actually bought any Anime DVDs in over 5 years. There's practically no way to distinguish what's actually worth buying or not anymore (of course that's beside my general opinion that nearly everything put out these days is pure crap).
That, and I got incredibly lazy and just Tivo what's on Cartoon Network (of course, Ghost in the Shell predates my Tivo, so I might have to hunt that down).
I bought an Azumanga Daioh brick, partly because it was cheap. Can't think of anything else. I don't even know what has been released in the last few years. I would have bought Black Lagoon, but Geneon then Geneon went under.
It is increasingly hard for me to justify paying anime DVD prices. I have other interests, and anime has become less interesting at the same time. Plus the prices of new releases just aren't favorable compared to US shows, buying at discount, or waiting maybe years for a low-priced brick. Even when I do run across a show I like, I don't want to pay the asking price.
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| Bata kun 3112th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Sat 2 Feb 06:33
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Huh? What happened at a maid cafe? And more importantly, was Zepy involved?
I must know know about this too. All I remember is the maid taxi service thing being stopped. =P
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I watch about the same amount, but I never really watched anything that would come out on DVD in the U.S. anyway. Nobody here cares about anything from the 70's or 80's. I think people downloading everything instead of buying it has probably damaged these companies just about as much as anything else. I guess what I'm saying is, I hate most anime fans around here anyway, as they're mostly of.. the "Naruto" crowd, and I'm too much of an elitist prick to tolerate them. So I'm kind of glad it's dying down a bit, haw haw.
Ha ha ha! I wouldn't mind finishing a series like "Kimagure Orange Road" actually. (I swear. People here need to see "Kimagure Orange Road" and a whole bunch of other series.) I don't even remember the last fan subbed series I finished. I wouldn't be surprised if "Zero no Tsukaima's" first season probably is it, but these days, I don't watch fan subs as much as I used to. If I could, I'd probably watch "Shugo Chara" or "Clannad" right now. Was going to add "Kimikiss", but J.C. killed it. --'
うぐう！
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| nobinobita 259th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(2):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Sun 3 Feb 13:14
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I guess what I'm saying is, I hate most anime fans around here anyway, as they're mostly of.. the "Naruto" crowd, and I'm too much of an elitist prick to tolerate them. So I'm kind of glad it's dying down a bit, haw haw.
Hey Red Falcon,
You're in the DC area right? You might be intersted in this:
http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/festivals/07-08/japan/events.cfm?genre_pick=FLM
The Kennedy center is having a Japan festival and this year they are premiering (for the US) some cool anime including 5cm per second (which has some of the best color composition ive ever seen in anything) and Genius Party, the newest from Studio 4C, who have done some of the most exciting animation of the past decade. As an extra treat for anyone into 4C style stuff, the manga artist Robin Nishi (author of the manga MINDGAME was based off of) will be there for a week doing sketches every day. If you like experimental films, art films and/or are tired of the anime industry, but still like good anime, you should check this out.
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| Maou 1360th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Mon 4 Feb 05:05
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If you like experimental films, art films and/or are tired of the anime industry, but still like good anime, you should check this out.
Thanks for pointing out Genius Party, nobi! I will be there...don't suppose you or others will be? You've hit the nail on the head, too...there seems to have been a mistaken view of animation as a genre rather than a medium abroad (US in particular), and it can make people more tolerant of stuff that isn't very challenging or interesting.
There are about as many good animations as there are films, I think (a small number amongst a great many), so I'm really excited to hear that these new films should be good. I hope so, anyway---other new animators that were arrogantly described as the "new Miyazaki" like Shinkai Makoto were pretty disappointing. "She and Her Cat" was great, but his two films so far were pretty but completely cluttered and uninteresting story-wise.
Luckily there are still folks like the MINDGAME creators...cannot WAIT for Genius Party.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| nobinobita 260th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(4):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Mon 4 Feb 11:10
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Thanks for pointing out Genius Party, nobi! I will be there...don't suppose you or others will be?
I'll definitely be there, just keep an eye out for the guy with the Naruto headband and Bleach shirt with Full Metal Alchemist hoodie. Haha I kid.
But I'll definitely be there. I love Studio 4 C. There are very few studios in animation or live action that have their business model of putting the artists first. It's rare that you get to see any sort of production where the result is what the creators truly wanted.
I don't really feel like Anime is in too bad of a slump right now because there are still studios like 4C putting out amazing work and getting recognition for it here in the US and abroad. Of course, I'm talking about it from the production side, I'm no expert on how the industry is doing in the US.
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The fans that you'll see less of aren't cool people. They're socially inept, but they're nice. They're not scum.
I gotta show some support for you on this. There's too much hatred towards anime fans or "weaboos" as those in the know like to call them. There's nothing inherently wrong with openly enjoying Inu Yasha or Naruto. There's also nothing wrong with taking Japanese class cos you like anime. That's as good of a reason as anything else.
I can put up with the fan girls and boys because they are at least genuinely interested and excited about what they like.
But I can't stand the people who feel superior to those fans, just because they like more obscure series, or even worse, because they like stuff outside of anime and that somehow makes them a more well rounded and complete human being (like for instance "The Answer Man" from Animenewsnetwork.com ).
Doh, now I sound hateful. Anyway, I'm not saying anyone on this board is an elitist asshole (I haven't met most of you in person before), just saying there are better things to hate out there than your average US anime otaku.
So lets forget all the hateration and show support for the things we like.
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| sfried
99th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(8):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Mon 4 Feb 11:48:
See, that's the crux of it. On one hand you have the lowest common denominator who always like to come up with hasty generalizations based on their limited experience, and on the other you have the elitist jerks who think their view and only their view is the truth. We end up with two extremes, and I hate both of them to be honest. That's what's the problem with American culture in general: It's always a dichotomy.
Not that I'm not open to people who are willing to know more about Japanese animation (and more about real customs and culture) in general. I'm open to the new fans, but it's not the end-all-be-all of mediums like some people would like to point it out as, so if they came there for that, then I don't know what to tell those people. Like alot of things in American culture, its highly overrated for its "underrated" status.
In fact, back in the country from I was from, it was mostly kept among ourselves rather than trying to make an "industry" out of it today... (and there was no relative cuture shock that made it "oh-so-different")
[this message was edited by sfried on Mon 4 Feb 11:56] |
| Maou 1362th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(9):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Mon 4 Feb 14:04:
I don't really see the argument here, but I am interested in two parts of whatever the deal is with animation fandom in the US of late. On one hand, I can see the lamentations of fans in the US who back in the day had to hand-subtitle and distribute titles on VHS and had a community born of scarcity, long before domestic companies decided to make the source of their hobby into an industry of its own.
At the same time, the difficulty of watching this animation from elsewhere and of making an underground around it sort of made Japanese animation into a genre whereas it probably ought to be seen as a medium. Does one like "anime?" Probably the same way one likes film: one likes the good ones.
Maybe the 'strata' of anime fans in the US has been created by this strange genre-ization of the animation medium. Given the level of public knowledge that I gather the US has of Japanese animation at this point, maybe soon it won't be an issue of people who like popular low-grade stuff being a disgrace to anime culture or whatever that is, but just of them having bad taste in the same way that people who like bad movies have bad taste. They won't be defaming this phantom genre of "anime" because anime won't necessarily mean one thing or the other, just that it's not live-action. Sure, there are some "fans of anime" in Japan, too, but the average dude will just have stuff he likes that may happen to be animated, and maybe the US audiences could/should move to something similar.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 4 Feb 14:06] |
| sfried
100th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(10):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Mon 4 Feb 14:37:
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I don't really see the argument here, but I am interested in two parts of whatever the deal is with animation fandom in the US of late. On one hand, I can see the lamentations of fans in the US who back in the day had to hand-subtitle and distribute titles on VHS and had a community born of scarcity, long before domestic companies decided to make the source of their hobby into an industry of its own.
At the same time, the difficulty of watching this animation from elsewhere and of making an underground around it sort of made Japanese animation into a genre whereas it probably ought to be seen as a medium. Does one like "anime?" Probably the same way one likes film: one likes the good ones.
Maybe the 'strata' of anime fans in the US has been created by this strange genre-ization of the animation medium. Given the level of public knowledge that I gather the US has of Japanese animation at this point, maybe soon it won't be an issue of people who like popular low-grade stuff being a disgrace to anime culture or whatever that is, but just of them having bad taste in the same way that people who like bad movies have bad taste. They won't be defaming this phantom genre of "anime" because anime won't necessarily mean one thing or the other, just that it's not live-action. Sure, there are some "fans of anime" in Japan, too, but the average dude will just have stuff he likes that may happen to be animated, and maybe the US audiences could/should move to something similar.
Thank you Maou. This is exactly what I mean. There are those who will treat it like a medium, and those who would treat it like a genre. I despise the latter, if not because of the many hasty generalization they come up with Japanese animation being "superior" mainly because "Western" animation has not evolved from anything outside of the Disney, Hanna Barbera, and Loony Tunes. It really bugs me because I've really seen alot of underground independent animators trying to make a career out of being an animator, when they get slapped in the face because what they do isn't "anime".
The result? They become unoriginal for the sake of conforming. Why? Because the industry demands it. People are sheep and flock to the latest trend. They just watch anime because they see everyone else watching it, as oppose to making decisions for themselves as to whether or not a certain show appeals to them.
And I see the elitists as nothing but herders, trying to sway people to "see the light" but in reality blinding them from the fact that it isn't being Japanese which makes anime appealing.
At least this is a problem I see exclusive to the US.
[this message was edited by sfried on Mon 4 Feb 14:48] |
| nobinobita 262th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):Anime Industry go boom in the US" , posted Mon 4 Feb 18:24:
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There are those who will treat it like a medium, and those who would treat it like a genre.
...
It really bugs me because I've really seen alot of underground independent animators trying to make a career out of being an animator, when they get slapped in the face because what they do isn't "anime".
The result? They become unoriginal for the sake of conforming. Why? Because the industry demands it.
I totally agree with you guys that its a medium and not a genre.
I'm curious about your comments on animators being forced to conform to anime stylings though. I work in animation and from my experience the field here is pretty anti anime. And I mean this from the most commercial houses to the Art houses. People involved in animation here generally look down on anime. There are lots of people here and there that enjoy it, but there are also many people who dislike it simply because it's Japanese.
I had a teacher who was an ex Disney guy who just couldn't stand anything "anime". It broke my heart cos I learned alot from him and consider him a mentor. But everytime I tried to show him something good like Memories, or MINDGAME or Ghibli stuff, he'd go out of his way to find reasons to dislike it.
I'm not saying that everyone is a rabid racist, but I've met dozens of animators who won't even give any anime a chance simply because they've convinced themselves its a genre, not a medium, and its uniformly bad. And they see nothing wrong with that logic.
Furthermore, i've seen lots of students go to school inspired to study animation because they like anime, only to be told it's wrong and American animation is superior. The ones with weaker wills are bullied into believing so and "learn the error of their ways" and renounce Anime.
That may sound like an extreme example, but Ive seen it happen lots of times.
I wish people could just enjoy animation as a medium as you've expressed, but for some reason it's easy to consider a country of origin a genre, which is of course absurd.
It's not all bad though.
I once watched Steamboy with a veteran Disney animator (and I mean veteran, this guy was a lead on The Little Mermaid, The Lion King, and every other Disney feature from the 80s through the 90s).
I was hesitant to ask his opinion of it, given my previous experiences with Disney guys. He watched it for a while then he said "I can't help thinking of what Eric Larson said about animation--that if you can do it in real life, then why bother animating it".
I thought he was going to go into a diatribe about how the characters and movements weren't exagerated enough, but he continued. He said, "this goes against everything I learned at Disney, but before I was an animator my first love was illustration, and this is illustrated beautifully." He enjoyed Steamboy, he thought it was beautifully done, because he could enjoy it for what it was, rather than hating it for what it's not.
Whenever I find myself dwelling on negative experiences, I just calm myself down by recalling a good one. I'm hoping I'll live longer this way.
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Mon 4 Feb 18:30] |
| Red Falcon 5988th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 5 Feb 02:20
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Hey Red Falcon,
You're in the DC area right? You might be intersted in this:
http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/festivals/07-08/japan/events.cfm?genre_pick=FLM
The Kennedy center is having a Japan festival and this year they are premiering (for the US) some cool anime including 5cm per second (which has some of the best color composition ive ever seen in anything) and Genius Party, the newest from Studio 4C, who have done some of the most exciting animation of the past decade. As an extra treat for anyone into 4C style stuff, the manga artist Robin Nishi (author of the manga MINDGAME was based off of) will be there for a week doing sketches every day. If you like experimental films, art films and/or are tired of the anime industry, but still like good anime, you should check this out.
Hey, thanks for the heads up, I'll definately have to check it out. At the same time though, I can't lie and say I just like "good anime", I just... like what I find to be entertaining, ha ha. For example, I'm a big fan of super robot shows, and I can't exactly defend all of the ones I like as being especially good, ha ha. But that still doesn't stop me from resenting these "young whippersnappers", much the same way I resent people who can't appreciate the good qualities in many older games. I knew a guy who pretty much refused to watch anything I tried to show him in terms of anime because it was "old", and therefore was "bad." I really couldn't follow his "logic" at all, it was just beyond me.
 Best site EVER:Link Here
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| sfried
102th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 5 Feb 03:01:
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Hey, thanks for the heads up, I'll definately have to check it out. At the same time though, I can't lie and say I just like "good anime", I just... like what I find to be entertaining, ha ha. For example, I'm a big fan of super robot shows, and I can't exactly defend all of the ones I like as being especially good, ha ha. But that still doesn't stop me from resenting these "young whippersnappers", much the same way I resent people who can't appreciate the good qualities in many older games. I knew a guy who pretty much refused to watch anything I tried to show him in terms of anime because it was "old", and therefore was "bad." I really couldn't follow his "logic" at all, it was just beyond me.
You know why old anime remains good? Simple: story and scriptwritting.
I have no interest in giant robots whatsoever. But then you showed Zeta Gundam once and I realized what made shows like these appealing.
You might also add to your case it was the artstyle they used back then (as you kept on emphasizing in th past), and they had better budgets for regular shows because of the boom.
[this message was edited by sfried on Tue 5 Feb 03:08] |
| Burning Ranger 1547th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(3):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 5 Feb 08:13
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Saying these series are low quality because you dislike them is again treating anime as a global genre, and looking for something that is by definition not in widely popular shows. It's like if you were blaming Heroes for not being as well written as Twin Peaks, or saying Stephen King should read more Hemingway.
But Heroes sucks because it's not Twin Peaks! It's a universal fact!
LOL, J/K. I really like Heroes and Twin Peaks so there.
But seriously, I think I know what you mean. Perhaps I am still a little bit elitist, even though I don't watch as much anime these days as I used to. In grad school, we had lengthy discussions about mass media and what was high brow and what was low brow. When I talk about Dragonball or Sailor Moon or Pokemon, I consider it low brow. The masses tend to like low brow so I can understand why they rose in popularity. Then again, lowbrow content is what I feel is killing the anime industry.
But what do I know, right?
Advanced Cyborg E. Branger AKA Burning Ranger
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| IkariDC 713th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
| "Re(5):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Tue 5 Feb 16:32
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When I talk about Dragonball or Sailor Moon or Pokemon, I consider it low brow. The masses tend to like low brow so I can understand why they rose in popularity. Then again, lowbrow content is what I feel is killing the anime industry.
I think we need to make a difference between lowbrow series and low quality series(in term of production, not content).
I think low quality stuff (series with poor direction and art, or whose quality drop abysmally after the first few episodes) are much more dangerous for the industry than lowbrow stuff.
Or maybe I just don't understand lowbrow.
I agree with Iggy about Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon. They were high quality series when they came out, and they still are if they can appeal to current generations. Then again, they're the typical shonen and shojo series, so they're not deep for you now. I used to watch Sailor Moon when I was a kid but I cannot stand it now, but I still like Dragon Ball a lot.
Oh, and regarding production values, Dragon Ball has some episodes where the quality drops to unbelivable low levels. I didn't notice it as a kid, but for example watch the episode of Freezer coming to earth and Trunks appearing for the first time, which was all cool, watch the next episode and everything is fugly!
GAZEROCK IS NOT DEAD
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| Toxico 4354th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
|  "Re(6):Anime Industry go boom in the US!" , posted Wed 6 Feb 16:18
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I agree with Iggy about Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon.
While, Sailor Moon kept itself more or less in a 'clean' 'steady' level through most of the series, that isn't so with Dragon Ball. It's simple, all of the characters fought exactly the same through most of the Z part; same attacks, same modus operandi, same lazer finishing move, plus, most of the series went with the plot device of "they are aliens, they are strong". The first series had a little more charisma, most characters used "different attacks" and "strategies" during the entire series, wich was much more fast paced and direct. The first series itself was much more well directed to kids, while the second one tried an attempt of "let's do a kid series that grown ups might watch": the only thing the Z series improved was more / clearer transparency effects, and sadly everyone loved it by that.
Plus, speaking of quality, the 80s really scream loudly you are already dead
The only evil of the word; is the one in the heart of mens
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, since long ago, with some friends, we go on a "frame per frame" analysis / review of certain chapters, and is incredible amazing how well the show can look frame per frame, and you can see a lot of funny / insteresting screens that otherwise are hard to see (for example, when one characters ends up spinning for some reason, in some cases, the spinning is incredibly well detailed with funny expresions. Most of these shows and many others (like early Disney) can hold their own a lot better than most recent us stuff.
the idiot looks at the finger."
"Re(4):Viva la French Animation" , posted Thu 21 Feb 11:27