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| nobinobita 291th Post
 
Copper Customer
    
|  "Re(5):Re(10):SF2HD news" , posted Sat 15 Mar 07:51
quote:
PS: As for the animation... well, it's tough because you have comic artists doing animation, which is actually a totally different discipline. Sequential art is so different, I'm sure.
I can't pardon this lack of ability though. They were hired to animate, so they should have done some research on how to do it properly. If they had just gone out and purchased The Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams and just followed what he outlines in there, they wouldn't have all these problems.
Looking at the SFHD animation makes me recall Animation 101, where lots of students were making the exact same mistakes. Also, I'm fairly sure alot of the Udon Crew studied animation in college. And on top of that, they're not even really animating, they're just redrawing frames, which is where I think things went wrong.
It seems like they approached each frame as a regular illustration, without regard to making motion paths and arcs to make sure that everything lined up across all the frames.
Their comics have the same issues, where character's faces and proportions can change drastically from panel to panel.
To me, these aren't nitpicky little issues, they are big glaring flaws that just shouldn't be in a professional product that money will be made from.
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| hikarutilmitt 454th Post
Gold Customer
  
| "Re(6):sprite banzai" , posted Sun 16 Mar 06:31
quote:
Look, it's very simple.
In the original low-res SD, the space between pixels is 1 pixel. That same space in HD is 16 pixels. That's nearly 32 pixels of leeway, which is always going to lead to some jerkiness. Especially if the frames aren't all done by the same person, which by now we know they're not. All it takes is some minor realignment on a few of the animations.
Once again, Capcom shows that whoever does their PR is a pile of horseshit. Do they really think people aren't noticing the seams? That "work in progress" excuse is only going to get you so much sympathy from lazy consumers. DON'T SHOW UNFINISHED PROJECTS TO UNINFORMED PEOPLE!!! Jesus.
Another problem could also be that this is a video of it, which, as far as I could tell, has some occasionally lost frames (trust me, it's not my PC or connection doing it) almost throughout. Just look at the backgrounds, they're not moving as smooth as they could and that's in spots that there won't be any jerkiness (like the boat rising and falling), so I almost want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that this is a combination of CLEARLY not being timed right for the animations yet and a video that's missing frames or is mistimed itself.
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| EddyT 643th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member
  
| "Re(8):sprite banzai" , posted Sun 16 Mar 09:36
quote:
I think this would be the perfect time for them to cancel the whole game. If Capcom All-Stars got cancelled, why not this? Everyone who plans to buy this is going to get SFIV anyway.
DELICIOUS CANCEL PLZ
Easier said than done, mainly because of the amount of time and money they invested into this game. If you were in the same position, would you drop this project just like that? Common logic would have you try to recoup your losses, and to only scrap a project if it is totally unsalvageable, no? HD Remix seems to still have problems, but I don't think it's FUBAR.
As I said before, if they keep the option of using the original 2D sprites and backgrounds, I think it will still sell very well because people have a choice in the matter. It will especially be enticing if you can play using the old sprites and the updated gameplay mode at the same time.
With people commenting on the animation, one would have to wonder if this game would have been different had Capcom Japan still owned the rights to SF? In fact, would this game have even been considered at all?
I have a feeling this game will be great gameplay-wise, especially since Capcom have old SF pros like Seth Killian and Dave Sirlin in their building. I may buy this game for PS3, myself, but you can't help but worry when Dave Sirlin states that the game will be out this summer, and we have only seen Ken/Ryu fights in about 3-4 stages so far.
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| Sensenic 1604th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
    
 
| "Re(6):Re(10):SF2HD news" , posted Mon 17 Mar 17:53
Well, haven't watched the videos because it's not sth I really care about but there's this one thing...
nobinobita:
quote:
And on top of that, they're not even really animating, they're just redrawing frames, which is where I think things went wrong.
But then again wasn't this what they are supposed to be doing originally?
I mean, IIRC, they were allowed from Japan to change the graphics, frames and backgrounds, and redraw them in HD, but no touching things such as adding or taking out frames, frame rate, etc. Or am I remembering wrong?
おやおやぁ~
"Farpaitement!"
-Obelix-
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| nobinobita 292th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(7):Re(10):SF2HD news" , posted Mon 17 Mar 23:58
quote:
But then again wasn't this what they are supposed to be doing originally?
I mean, IIRC, they were allowed from Japan to change the graphics, frames and backgrounds, and redraw them in HD, but no touching things such as adding or taking out frames, frame rate, etc. Or am I remembering wrong?
What I meant was that they weren't hired to do totally original animation, they are redoing existing animation, which is much easier. But they still have to create animation, which means they should know how to animate, which is unfortunately not the case.
There are lots of problems with SFHD, so many that I need visual aids to describe them:
http://www.geocities.com/nobinobita2095/Ken_HD_errors_01.swf
http://www.geocities.com/nobinobita2095/Ken_HD_errors_02.swf
You can't blame those problems on the resolution increase or a lack of frames or the source material. Those problems exist because the artists didn't know enough about animation to avoid them. It's not an issue of resolution, otherwise Blue Ray Disks would look choppier than standard DVDs. You can't blame the source material, since it also has the same number of frames, yet it looks smoother. The problem is that the new frames have basic drawing errors that make them choppier.
Udon was supposed to just res-up the sprites. Sounds easy enough, but it still requires animation experience to make sure everything lines up correctly. But they didn't really follow the original sprites, they kept the basic motions, but they totally redrew the characters. Such a drastic change requires even more animation knowledge, which the artists were lacking.
It looks like they treated each frame as a single illustration, without checking whether it really fit in with all the other frames. It also looks like multiple artists worked on the Ken Sprite, and each one drew Ken in their own style, rather than following a model sheet. These problems are common errors, especially in the work of beginning animators, but they should never make it into a finished professional product.
At first I was impressed that Capcom USA decided to redo their own work for SFHD. The newest screens looked much better, with the less random coloring and better drawing. But seeing it in motion was a big letdown, because all the same animation errors persist in the revised work.
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| D`Cloud
215th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(8):SF2HD news" , posted Tue 18 Mar 01:16:
quote:
But then again wasn't this what they are supposed to be doing originally?
I mean, IIRC, they were allowed from Japan to change the graphics, frames and backgrounds, and redraw them in HD, but no touching things such as adding or taking out frames, frame rate, etc. Or am I remembering wrong?
What I meant was that they weren't hired to do totally original animation, they are redoing existing animation, which is much easier. But they still have to create animation, which means they should know how to animate, which is unfortunately not the case.
There are lots of problems with SFHD, so many that I need visual aids to describe them:
http://www.geocities.com/nobinobita2095/Ken_HD_errors_01.swf
http://www.geocities.com/nobinobita2095/Ken_HD_errors_02.swf
You can't blame those problems on the resolution increase or a lack of frames or the source material. Those problems exist because the artists didn't know enough about animation to avoid them. It's not an issue of resolution, otherwise Blue Ray Disks would look choppier than standard DVDs. You can't blame the source material, since it also has the same number of frames, yet it looks smoother. The problem is that the new frames have basic drawing errors that make them choppier.
Udon was supposed to just res-up the sprites. Sounds easy enough, but it still requires animation experience to make sure everything lines up correctly. But they didn't really follow the original sprites, they kept the basic motions, but they totally redrew the characters. Such a drastic change requires even more animation knowledge, which the artists were lacking.
It looks like they treated each frame as a single illustration, without checking whether it really fit in with all the other frames. It also looks like multiple artists worked on the Ken Sprite, and each one drew Ken in their own style, rather than following a model sheet. These problems are common errors, especially in the work of beginning animators, but they should never make it into a finished professional product.
At first I was impressed that Capcom USA decided to redo their own work for SFHD. The newest screens looked much better, with the less random coloring and better drawing. But seeing it in motion was a big letdown, because all the same animation errors persist in the revised work.
I thought from the very beginning when they released their behind the scenes work that they have a very wrong workflow. and true enough it shows. They are tracing the frames in photoshop for christ sake!
they should've printed the original frames first, rough drawing over > animation check > then cleaned up for consistensy.. IN PAPER!
although Yes, there are digital workflows now... BUT they dont do it in photoshop!
http://www.dustinuy.com
[this message was edited by D`Cloud on Tue 18 Mar 01:20] |
| Sensenic 1605th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(8):Re(10):SF2HD news" , posted Tue 18 Mar 19:24
quote:
Udon was supposed to just res-up the sprites. Sounds easy enough, but it still requires animation experience to make sure everything lines up correctly. But they didn't really follow the original sprites, they kept the basic motions, but they totally redrew the characters. Such a drastic change requires even more animation knowledge, which the artists were lacking.
It looks like they treated each frame as a single illustration, without checking whether it really fit in with all the other frames. It also looks like multiple artists worked on the Ken Sprite, and each one drew Ken in their own style, rather than following a model sheet. These problems are common errors, especially in the work of beginning animators, but they should never make it into a finished professional product.
Oh, I see...
Shame on them for re-drawing the frames "from zero" and independently, then. u.u
PS: Nice job you did with those flashes there. >:]
おやおやぁ~
"Farpaitement!"
-Obelix-
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| nobinobita 293th Post
Copper Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):SF2HD news" , posted Thu 20 Mar 05:33
quote:
I bow before you nobinobita, seeing these sprite up close they really are pretty bad. The growing eyebrows are the worst.
Personally what they should have done was give us a TRUE HD remake, that is don't "stylize" the sprites to look comic-book like, just double the resolution of the originals and clean up the pixellated blockiness to make it appear smoother, kind of like this what-if Sonic 2 HD mock up
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/sega/2007/12/if-sonic-the-hedgehog-2-was-in-hd.html
FINALLY!!! THE ATTENTION AND RECOGNITION THAT I CRAVE!!!--ahem, i mean, thank you for your nice comments. I agree that it would have worked out better if they followed the sprites more closely and just subtly updated the drawings.
That Sonic 2 Mockup looks awesome! I would love to see Sonic remade in that awesome 90s airbrush style.
quote:
Many Capcom designers did, and that shows in SF, particularly in the way they took control of SF3.
There's evidence of this in Capcom Design Works. On page 160 they do this A Day in the Life of a Capcom Artist breakdown where they follow around Ikeno. On the top lefthand corner of the page there's a photo of him doing a classic Aś Batido, a Capoeira overhead kick.
Here's the full scan of the page for anyone interested in reading (and translating?) it.
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