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| Olivier Hague
102th Post
 
Regular Customer
   
|  "Re(2):L change the world?" , posted Thu 8 May 09:46:
quote:
The ending of the 2 part movie was 1000 times better than the ending of the comic though.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Yeah, if you disregard the fact L's plan was quite flawed...
How was he supposed to know when to drop "dead"? Good thing Rem killed Watari. Not exactly predictable, but...
And of course, the plan assumes the Shinigami wouldn't be around anymore after that... Did L know Rem would die? Nope, he didn't...
The movies "cheat" quite a bit, on top of being... well, bad.
Also, L wasn't the kind of guy to sacrifice himself anyway, in the original manga. Risk his life, yes. But sacrifice it for Great Justice? That's another (far less interesting) character.
End of Spoiler
quote:
The comic becomes a piece of shit after book 7 or 8 after you know what.
Hrmmmmno.
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Thu 8 May 09:55] |
| Makatiel
210th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(3):L change the world?" , posted Thu 8 May 17:35
quote:
The ending of the 2 part movie was 1000 times better than the ending of the comic though.
quote:
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Yeah, if you disregard the fact L's plan was quite flawed...
How was he supposed to know when to drop "dead"? Good thing Rem killed Watari. Not exactly predictable, but...
And of course, the plan assumes the Shinigami wouldn't be around anymore after that... Did L know Rem would die? Nope, he didn't...
The movies "cheat" quite a bit, on top of being... well, bad.
Also, L wasn't the kind of guy to sacrifice himself anyway, in the original manga. Risk his life, yes. But sacrifice it for Great Justice? That's another (far less interesting) character.
End of Spoiler
Well, if you really want to go that far, you might as well say (not really a spoiler, but...):
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Light is a goddamn moron and the whole damn series is contrived and "cheats".
If he really wanted to have no evidence and never be found, he could've just written names and then burned each page immediately after. The pages never run out, so why keep them and the evidence just lying around? Getting found out would have been an impossibility if Light actually thought about the situation more.
The entire comic is flawed because the characters are actually not that smart. I'm fine with that actually. I was never trying to find holes because that's not the point of the comic or the movies.
End of Spoiler
quote:
quote:
The comic becomes a piece of shit after book 7 or 8 after you know what.
Hrmmmmno.
Hrrmmmyes.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
The comic becomes a POS not because the plot falls apart (which it does) but rather because Light's rivals are totally uninteresting. Both Mel and Nii are shitty, shallow versions of L. Neither of them do a single interesting thing the whole time. L at least busted out the handcuffs, played tennis, was an otaku-ish fan of MisaMisa, locked up Light, etc. What did Mel or Nii have or do that made you smile or even think, ooh, clever? Bah, they were both rubbish.
End of Spoiler
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| Makatiel
211th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(4):L change the world?" , posted Thu 8 May 17:40
I wonder why my previous post has such a small font...
Just to save your eyes, I'll post what was in the spoilers again:
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Light is a goddamn moron and the whole damn series is contrived and "cheats".
If he really wanted to have no evidence and never be found, he could've just written names and then burned each page immediately after. The pages never run out, so why keep them and the evidence just lying around? Getting found out would have been an impossibility if Light actually thought about the situation more.
The entire comic is flawed because the characters are actually not that smart. I'm fine with that actually. I was never trying to find holes because that's not the point of the comic or the movies.
End of Spoiler
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
The comic becomes a POS not because the plot falls apart (which it does) but rather because Light's rivals are totally uninteresting. Both Mel and Nii are shitty, shallow versions of L. Neither of them do a single interesting thing the whole time. L at least busted out the handcuffs, played tennis, was an otaku-ish fan of MisaMisa, locked up Light, etc. What did Mel or Nii have or do that made you smile or even think, ooh, clever?
I can't think of a single thing.
Bah. They were both rubbish.
End of Spoiler
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| Olivier Hague
103th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(5):L change the world?" , posted Thu 8 May 22:14:
More Death Note spoilers...
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
I really don't see why you think Light should have burned the pages... It's not like he got in any kind of trouble because of that in the story, right? Heck, for all we know, maybe he was burning the pages... Anyway, Light was obviously getting rid of the detached pages (he wouldn't want somebody else to see Ryuk), and he simply didn't want the notebook itself to be found at all.
And if you think trying to find the holes wasn't the point of the comic, I don't know what to tell you... What was the point of the comic?
As for Near and Mello (since that's their names), the ending of the manga (Matsuda's theory) implies a possible reversal of roles, and that's interesting to me. And I'd say Mello stealing a Death Note along the way should count for something, for example?
End of Spoiler
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Thu 8 May 22:32] |
| Makatiel
214th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Fri 9 May 13:44
quote:
C'mon...
First episode: Light is willing to kill criminals.
Second episode: Light is willing to kill those who try to stop him.
There. We were already done for Light at that point.
There were more steps than that obviously.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
killing his girlfriend... pretty much letting his father die...
End of Spoiler
In terms of sympathy for the character though, which is what I think you are trying to point out, I don't disagree. I don't think most reasonable people "like" Light.
But the comic definitely attempts to put the question to the reader: should I be rooting for him or hoping that he gets caught?
And don't forget how the series ends.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
It's a sympathetic ending for Light, not one that denounces his actions.
End of Spoiler
Again, we can disagree on what we thought the point of the comic was. That's fine. But I will admit that I'm surprised that you thought finding holes in their plans was the "main" point. If anything, for me, it was just a little side diversion.
And I also think I wasn't clear on why burning pages would've been effective. If Light was really worried about the Death Note being discovered, he could've just laminated the cover and carried it around with him. In fact, he could've just used it as a notebook for all his classes (as long as he didn't write any names in it). Or else, he could have cut it into a tiny pocket notebook (1/10th the size) and burn the rest. It's really not that hard to make sure that it never gets discovered or found.
And if he just used it regularly, he would not give a damn at all being surveillanced, because there is nothing suspicious about a boy writing in his own notebook. In fact, he would never have to approach his father and say that he wanted to help (to attempt to discover who L is). Why would he care at all? It would be much easier for him to just stay low.
The entire comic would unravel if he didn't act so stupidly.
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| Olivier Hague
105th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Fri 9 May 17:33:
quote:
There were more steps than that obviously.
Did I miss a step? What I wrote above is true, and the rest of the series simply illustrated that.
And no, I wasn't trying to point out anything in terms of "sympathy for the character". I was just saying your questions ("How far is Light willing to go? What happens when you have that kind of power?") simply aren't at the core of the series. The former is answered in the first two episodes, and Near briefly mentions the latter in one of the last episodes. That's about it.
quote:
the comic definitely attempts to put the question to the reader: should I be rooting for him or hoping that he gets caught?
If he gets caught, the series probably ends, and that's a bummer. Apart from that? I don't think so...
Readers who think they should be rooting for him as a character are probably a bit too easily impressed by pose-striking bishônen (best case).
As for the end of the series...
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
How is it "sympathetic", really? Or perhaps you're talking about the terrible ending to the TV series? They also changed L's death quite a bit...
End of Spoiler
quote:
If Light was really worried about the Death Note being discovered, he could've just laminated the cover and carried it around with him.
(I probably wouldn't risk doing that to the magical notebook that never runs out of pages, but let's say Light would...)
After L learned about the notebook, would a cover-less notebook really be any less suspicious?
And before that...
quote:
In fact, he could've just used it as a notebook for all his classes (as long as he didn't write any names in it).
Yeah, and as long as nobody else touches it. Ever.
quote:
And if he just used it regularly, he would not give a damn at all being surveillanced, because there is nothing suspicious about a boy writing in his own notebook.
Yup, until L inevitably says "Watari, could you get me that notebook he likes so much?"
If Light really keeps it on him at all times, it's suspicious. If he doesn't, L touches the notebook, and shit happens.
quote:
In fact, he would never have to approach his father and say that he wanted to help (to attempt to discover who L is). Why would he care at all?
Because of his god complex (established in episode 1)?
(in the manga, L approached Light)
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Fri 9 May 17:40] |
| Makatiel
215th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(3):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Mon 12 May 18:53
quote:
There were more steps than that obviously.
Did I miss a step? What I wrote above is true, and the rest of the series simply illustrated that.
Well, I would consider
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
killing your girlfriend
End of Spoiler
totally different from killing some cops who are trying to stop you. But then again, maybe you feel like someone close to you is no different from some faceless, nameless cop? Who knows.
quote:
Readers who think they should be rooting for him as a character are probably a bit too easily impressed by pose-striking bishônen (best case).
I'm surprised you think that. The Light character is an extremely sympathetic character, not only for readers, but also for the entire world set up in the comic. I mean, seriously, were we reading the same comic?
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
The entire second half is about the entirety of Japan subjugating themselves to Kira's will and treating him like a god.
End of Spoiler
quote:
As for the end of the series...
No, I'm talking about
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
MisaMisa and all the Light followers gathering to mourn his death.
End of Spoiler
If you didn't think that was a sympathetic ending, then I really have no idea which comic you were reading.
quote:
After L learned about the notebook, would a cover-less notebook really be any less suspicious?
How could L possibly learn about the notebook if Light did just what I said? To be honest though, I don't even remember how L learned about it in the first place. It had something to do with the corporation people using it right? Lol. I just dismissed the whole thing as silly.
quote:
Yeah, and as long as nobody else touches it. Ever.
Carry around a small notebook and see if anyone ever touches it (especially if you draw no attention to it). I carry around books almost all the time, and no one has ever touched them in these past few years, maybe decade. If what I carried around was smaller and I carried it around less conspicuously, I bet it would be easy to keep people from touching it, pretty much forever.
Anyway, there's no real point in discussing this is there? Would you be willing to agree that Light isn't all that bright and that there were much better ways of carrying out his plans?
The twists and turns were plot devices used to move a story along. Sometimes those plot devices were silly and stupid. I'm fine with that because, like I said, I wasn't (and I don't think most people were) reading the story to see whether or not Light could construct some kind of foolproof plan.
Maybe you read it as a detective story, looking for clues, but I seriously doubt most people did. I think most people were reading it because they found the characters compelling, the scenario interesting and they wanted to see what happens in the end.
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| Olivier Hague
106th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(4):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Tue 13 May 02:53:
quote:
Well, I would consider killing your [...]
Wait, are we still talking about the live action movies? Why?
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The Light character is an extremely sympathetic character, not only for readers, but also for the entire world set up in the comic.
Huh-huh.
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The entire second half is about [...]
And that relates to Light being "sympathetic" how?
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No, I'm talking about[...]
1) That wasn't her.
2) Do you really think that's what they were doing? Really?
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If you didn't think that was a sympathetic ending
Of course not.
The TV series ending was sympathetic, on the other hand. And thus quite stupid.
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How could L possibly learn about the notebook if Light did just what I said?
Well, L did learn about the notebook in the series, and that was not because Light failed to follow your advices. Soooo...
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Carry around a small notebook and see if anyone ever touches it (especially if you draw no attention to it).
Yeah, I guess the whole thing does seem a lot less risky when you don't have to deal with guys who put dozens of surveilance cameras in your room when you're not there.
quote:
Would you be willing to agree that Light isn't all that bright and that there were much better ways of carrying out his plans?
Sure, but you still have to come up with these "much better ways"...
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Tue 13 May 02:53] |
| Olivier Hague
107th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Tue 13 May 19:13:
quote:
IIRC, the TV announcer was his girlfriend in the comic. She was also his ex-girlfriend from college IIRC. It's not like she was just some dude trying to catch him.
Nope, since she wasn't a dude, and she wasn't trying to catch him. Apart from that...
I mean, where did you get the idea that Light cared about her? At all?
quote:
Now I'm really (and sincerely) interested in what you thought the ending was. My entire group of friends (all Japanese) agreed that this was the ending.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
They were praying for the return of KIRA. They weren't "mourning Light's death". Hell, they didn't even know Light.
Anyway, you can be sure they weren't there because Light was such a likable fellow.
End of Spoiler
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I've already told you. Keeping a low profile would be the easiest way.
Keeping a low profile = not bothering to hide the Death Note? That's an interesting concept. ^^;
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For example, not falling for the bait when L used his TV broadcast would have been the easiest.
Well, it's not like Light planned that one. That was just part of his "sympathetic" personality.
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I mean, seriously, is there a single person who read the comic and didn't see that as a trap?
'Guess Light didn't read the comic and see the part where Interpol peed itself because L agreed to help...
Light had never heard of the guy, and had just gotten his hands on a magic notebook. So I wouldn't blame him for not suspecting this could harm him in any way.
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Tue 13 May 19:18] |
| Olivier Hague
107th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(8):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Wed 14 May 18:22
More ending spoilers...
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
No, I really don't see how the ending is sympathetic toward Light.
For one thing, the fact some people agree with KIRA isn't just to be expected, it's also old news: we've seen that fairly early on in the series. So that's not what the ending is about.
Then, just because the manga shows these supporters, it doesn't necessarily condone them.
While the series definitely spent more time on the game of chess between Light and the Wammy kids than on the moral elements, when it did go there, it wasn't condoning KIRA or his supporters. Heck, KIRA's supporters were either angry mobs, greedy producers, fanatics (such as Mikami or even the unnamed girl at the end of the series... not exactly a heartwarming scene), or Matsuda (not the sharpest knife in the drawer).
And speaking of Matsuda, he had very little love for Light, in the Yellow Box. Remember what happened then? That was one of the very few moments where the morality of Light's actions was discussed by people who actually knew what was going on. How did that turn out?
Finally, Light's motives really weren't quite as noble as his "nice" (but somewhat dumb) supporters would like to believe.
The guy was bored. He said so himself. And he had a god complex. He didn't really care about the world becoming a better place. He cared about becoming the god of that new world.
I mean, what would happen at his death? He never even mentioned the possibility of a successor, despite risking his life in that battle of wits. He just wanted to live a long life ("no shinigami eyes, please!") as a god, and after that, he simply didn't care.
Basically, he's a jerk of colossal magnitude, and the manga doesn't really leave that up for debate. At best, it implies that Light probably wouldn't have been "so bad" without the Death Note. A more inhibited jerk, and a very efficient detective, maybe? But that's not the Light we've seen in the series.
If anything, the ending of the manga shows us that Light did become a god to some people, except it wasn't in the way he intended at all.
End of Spoiler
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| makatiel
218th Post
Frequent Customer
| "Re(9):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Fri 16 May 10:18
Ending
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
But nothing in your entire post has anything to do with the actual ending itself. You're talking about the story, the fanatic followers, OCD Mikami, etc., but the ending doesn't have any of them.
The actual ending is extremely sympathetic to Light. It shows a bunch of people gathering to mourn / worship / pray to or for Light. I don't see how you can consider that as anything but sympathetic. People loved him! They wish he was back! And that's how the comic ends, the final pages that the writer wrote and the artist drew.
I agree with all your points about the mob, the greedy producer, etc., etc., but those come in the middle of the story.
I simply cannot see how you can argue away the actual ending.
End of Spoiler
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| Olivier Hague
109th Post
Regular Customer
| "Re(10):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Fri 16 May 17:30:
Ending, surprisingly enough.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
When I talked about fanatics, I mentioned the unnamed girl at the end. So yes, I was talking about the ending.
Again, the fact some people adore KIRA isn't exactly breaking news. We've seen that quite a few times earlier in the series.
And again, they're not mourning for Light. They don't even know Light. If anything, they're praying for KIRA's return, because KIRA was good to them. In other words, they're ultimately praying for themselves.
The way these guys think about KIRA isn't anything new, and is still as shortsighted as it was on day one. If you got the impression the author condone it in any way, I'd like to know why.
The only (sorta) "new" thing about the ending is the overtly religious tone that makes it appear as though Light/KIRA will really be remembered as a god (at least, this god's "miracles" are well documented). So Light did become a god after all, just not in the way he wanted (at all). That's irony, not sympathy.
The only sympathy I'd get from the ending scene isn't for Light, but rather for the poor souls who are now revering a dead murderer... But then again, I think the girl of the last page is just plain creepy.
End of Spoiler
[this message was edited by Olivier Hague on Fri 16 May 17:41] |
| Time Mage 2677th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
    
| "Re(5):Re(10):Re(10):L change the world?" , posted Thu 22 May 21:00
quote:
Olivier, I think you are just reaching now.
If we cannot agree that the ending was sympathetic to Light, then I don't think we can agree on anything. I'd be interested to know what other people thought.
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
In the 13th volume of the manga, consisting of interviews, curiosities, added details, etc, the author says clearly that the girl is NOT Misamisa. In fact, what happens with Misa (also explained there) is that someone tells her about Light being dead (he says "Matsuda, probably"), and she commits suicide shortly thereafter.
End of Spoiler
"News flash big guy: You can wax on wax off all you want I'm still... KICKIN' YOUR ASS!"
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