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| Maou 2046th Post
  
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
    
    
    
    
    
|  "Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Wed 18 Aug 14:12:  
It seems important that someone talk about Last Window since it's been out for a good while now and I finally got around to buying it. Thoughts up through chapter 2 or so (some books got in the way):
Clearly the quality of the scenario writing means I will play it even if it had the worst system in the world. The writing is still outstanding and leagues beyond most of what has passed for story in story-centric games of late. Kyle Hyde is a fantastic character. So far, I'm slightly bothered that some of the groundbreaking ending events of Wish Room/Hotel Dusk don't seem to be so central to the start of the scenario here---this works so that new players can enjoy it, but honestly, who is going to buy a Cing Game or another Kyle Hyde game besides people who loved the original? Reminds me of Metal Gear Solid 2's sort of skipping the original's ending...good thing I never bothered with that one.
One interesting, logical, and exhausting extension is that if you rummage around in your notes (and use your Angel's Door bookmark, tohoho), you can read through a full novelization of the events you've been playing through to a far greater extent than in the original. It uses the same narrative/interview structure as the articles by Martin Summer for the original that appeared on the Wish Room/Hotel Dusk website that the Professor (+Iggy?) and I talked about in another thread, written decades after the game's events. This does sort of make the book a weird metatextual object (is it really Kyle's inventory anymore? Why do we have this future-item?), but oh well. It's also exhaustingly long to read now, but might be fun to read rather than playing the game again.
Playing the game again: that is what you are doing, since the system right down to the interface is just like the original. Serviceable but not great---I really wish you could directly rummage through things like an old Western point-and-click adventure/RPG rather than going to a different screen. But like with Xenogears, I'll take any amount of system punishment just to enjoy a story.
The music is still very good though verrrry similar. The menu music is almost the same though better mixed, though you can also use the jukebox (maybe Kyle stole the one from Hotel Dusk and carries it around with him, as long as we're justifying the game system with in-game scenario) to set different music for that. Nice!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 18 Aug 14:15] |
| Replies: |
| Maese 595th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(5):Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Fri 20 Aug 17:28:
quote:
They announced it for the US? When did that happen? All I've heard is a Euro release date.
Kyle Hyde and the Secret of the Missing American Release. I have this fantasy where even if it isn't released internationally, the brilliant translator of the original would go renegade and translate it anyway. I read a bit of the original's English script and I was like...woah.
Having played through Hotel Dusk, I'm actually interested in knowing how the English script stacks up to the Japanese one. The English one is quite fantastic in how it conveys that noir feeling, and ensures that all the characters have a unique voice that is not excessively caricatured. Sometimes I wondered if the writer of the localized version wanted to drift towards a more pulp or potboiler feel, but who cares; it was great.
I just hope that the sequel doesn't have something like that damned newspaper that blew everything for you in advance.
I heard this time the localized version will try to add some spice to many dull aspects of the original Japanese text. To what extent they would succeed remains to be seen, but it sure would be nice to get a message other than a mere "oh, it's a table" the 345th time you enter somebody's apartment and click to check on a desk.
Having already played the JP version I can say that, story-wise, the game holds its own quite well and is a more than worthy sequel to the original Hotel Dusk. I'd say the artwork is even more gorgeous. Oh, and the little novel thing is a nice touch, it also gives you some interesting inputs about our lovable Kyle Hyde's background beyond what we can glimpse on the games.
A well crafted piece of work indeed. It shows it has been done with a good deal of love and care.
EDIT: Bonus track (a nice interview with some of the female staff behind the game; they even get to discuss Hyde's worth as dating material!)
[this message was edited by Maese on Fri 20 Aug 17:35] |
| Maou 2050th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Sat 21 Aug 10:27:
I actually disagree somewhat with the above, since I think that Wish Room had one of the best scripts I'd seen in a game in a very, very long time. From what I glanced at the English script at some point, it seems you could argue that they amped up the noir/渋い factor even more, but it's hardly that much more than the original, which really produces the most authentic gritty/noir American atmosphere I've seen, even in Japanese. Since the original script is striving in some ways to evoke/sound like American dialogue, it becomes even stronger when actually written in English.
It's actually somewhat similar to the earlier, better translations by Alfred Birnbaum of Murakami Haruki's stuff, like A Wild Sheep Chase. I gave someone an English copy of that book and read through the beginning, and found that he'd (arguably unnecessarily) increased the Hemmingway-/noir-ness of it all, but it is understandable in light of the original's influences and what the author was 'going for' in a sense in Japanese. It's also similar to Working Designs' work on Lunar---rewritten and certain parts accentuated, but entirely in the same vibe as the original...and most importantly, written by people who are genuinely good writers in English.
So, Woolseyism? Not quite...I think that if the US 'Hotel Dusk' had contained eight times the exclamation points!!!! and fluent but hyper dialogue of an almost vaudevillian bent, you could call it Woolseyized, but...
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 21 Aug 10:41] |
| nobinobita 797th Post
Red Carpet Regular Member+
| "Re(6):Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Sat 21 Aug 13:25:
quote:
I actually disagree somewhat with the above, since I think that Wish Room had one of the best scripts I'd seen in a game in a very, very long time. From what I glanced at the English script at some point, it seems you could argue that they amped up the noir/渋い factor even more, but it's hardly that much more than the original, which really produces the most authentic gritty/noir American atmosphere I've seen, even in Japanese. Since the original script is striving in some ways to evoke/sound like American dialogue, it becomes even stronger when actually written in English.
It's actually somewhat similar to the earlier, better translations by Alfred Birnbaum of Murakami Haruki's stuff, like A Wild Sheep Chase. I gave someone an English copy of that book and read through the beginning, and found that he'd (arguably unnecessarily) increased the Hemmingway-/noir-ness of it all, but it is understandable in light of the original's influences and what the author was 'going for' in a sense in Japanese. It's also similar to Working Designs' work on Lunar---rewritten and certain parts accentuated, but entirely in the same vibe as the original...and most importantly, written by people who are genuinely good writers in English.
Damn that sounds really good. Lemme ask ya, the style of Noir in this game; is it more like more recent Film Noir influenced movies where the hero is really hardened and kind of crass and the story is very dark, seedy and violent like China Town? Or is it more like an old black and white flick where the hero is a paragon of masculinity with a distant tough guy veneer that belies an incredibly gentle and noble heart stuck in a world of evil fast talking tragic geniuses desperately trying to outsmart one another like Out of the Past?
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sat 21 Aug 13:26] |
| sfried 557th Post
New Red Carpet Member
| "Re(6):Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Sat 21 Aug 13:37:
quote:
I actually disagree somewhat with the above, since I think that Wish Room had one of the best scripts I'd seen in a game in a very, very long time. From what I glanced at the English script at some point, it seems you could argue that they amped up the noir/渋い factor even more, but it's hardly that much more than the original, which really produces the most authentic gritty/noir American atmosphere I've seen, even in Japanese. Since the original script is striving in some ways to evoke/sound like American dialogue, it becomes even stronger when actually written in English.
It's actually somewhat similar to the earlier, better translations by Alfred Birnbaum of Murakami Haruki's stuff, like A Wild Sheep Chase. I gave someone an English copy of that book and read through the beginning, and found that he'd (arguably unnecessarily) increased the Hemmingway-/noir-ness of it all, but it is understandable in light of the original's influences and what the author was 'going for' in a sense in Japanese. It's also similar to Working Designs' work on Lunar---rewritten and certain parts accentuated, but entirely in the same vibe as the original...and most importantly, written by people who are genuinely good writers in English.
So, Woolseyism? Not quite...I think that if the US 'Hotel Dusk' had contained eight times the exclamation points!!!! and fluent but hyper dialogue of an almost vaudevillian bent, you could call it Woolseyized, but...
I don't mean Woolsey'd as in substantially change segments of script or add bits of humor here and there a la FFVI/3, but rather take a few liberties with the dialogue to indeed get the author's idea across. What separates this from regular fansub/word-for-word translation is that they are targeting the intent of the creator as opposed to merely aiming for accuracy.
[this message was edited by sfried on Sat 21 Aug 13:37] |
| Maou 2052th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Sat 21 Aug 14:58:
True, though the problem with Woolsey is not that he doesn't write well (he does), but that the feeling doesn't quite get across with his version of VI. Many people note how fluent and well-written the dialogue is as such, and this is true, but the tone is dramatically different because it's just so manic...I guarantee that there are at least four times as many exclamation marks in his script as in the original. His translation doesn't 'clarify' or even match the originial tone, however well-written word-for-word it may be. It really is like FFVI on speed.
The 'Hotel Dusk' script, though, like Working Designs' take on Lunar, does augment a few things while staying in the style and spirit of the original. Outwardly, this appears similar, but functionally, it's very different. The reason being that all three of these games have good, flowing scripts written in good English; the difference is that English 'Hotel Dusk' and Lunar players are able to understand what the original "felt like" (or the intent, if you like), which is simply not the case in VI.
quote:
Lemme ask ya, the style of Noir in this game
Probably closer to the second, though I'm not so sure Kyle Hyde has a "heart of gold" as such. Basically, it's clipped dialogue and many hard-up stories that don't end happily and that are tied together in meaningful if oblique ways. The atmosphere is not akin to the poisonous corruption and depravity of Chinatown, but there is a sense of malaise and above all world-weariness to Wish Room/Last Window's world. Classic noir things are done right---Kyle drinks his whisky and is curt with irritating people without being a brawler. People carry their sorrows and mistakes around and try to solve them as best they can. The original's last chapter revelations are fantastic in this regard.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 21 Aug 15:04] |
| Professor 2775th Post
MMCafe Owner
     
| "Re(8):Last Window/Hotel Dusk 2" , posted Sat 21 Aug 17:05:
Here's a short transcript from a part of the intro, coutesy of gamefaqs
KYLE: (Great. An empty lobby with no one home. Where's the front desk in this dump?)
<He looks around and sees the "Open" sign.>
KYLE: (Huh. Cute sign, pal. ...Guess that's where I check in.)
<He rings the bell three times. A door opens.>
KYLE: (Maybe this dump isn't deserted after all...)
DUNNING: Rosa! Hey, Rosa! If I told ya once, I told ya a thousand times! Don't go botherin' me when I'm watchin' a game! Huh? The hell? You ain't Rosa!
KYLE: (Not since I last checked. Oh, this guy's fantastic...) Who's Rosa?
DUNNING: Rosa? She's the hotel maid. Hard worker, but she's got a mouth the size'a Nebraska. Always findin' ways to bust my chops when I'm watchin' a game. Anyway, sorry for thinkin' you was her. No harm, no foul, eh? Name's Dunning Smith, and I own this joint. Welcome to my own little slice'a heaven...Hotel Dusk.
KYLE: (Dunning Smith? Seems like a grumpy piece of leather.)
DUNNING: So! Ya here for a room, or just t'hear me jaw?
[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 21 Aug 17:05] |
| Maou 2056th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "now in English" , posted Fri 27 Aug 13:14:
Hey English speakers, you can try this game out now, too, as the venerable Court Records informs. While it's tragic that the American market has developed in such a peculiar way that it's now guaranteed to get translations of pandering sludge and moe trash, and not some of the best-written narrative seen in probably a decade, at least there are no regions, so you can enjoy what the Europeans got.
Hmm, come to think of it, this is a weird weird reversal. Wasn't it always the story of Europe's life that they couldn't get half of the games released in the Americas? Like, didn't they not even get the one good (Super Famicom) release of...Chrono Trigger??
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Fri 27 Aug 13:19] |
| KTallguy 1273th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):now in English" , posted Mon 8 Nov 01:03:
So I just finished Hotel Dusk, Japanese version. It was pretty amazing. I liked how the ending turned out, although my favorite character was Iris and she wasn't really in the game enough for my taste.
Just curious, should I seek out the English or Japanese version of Last Window? I personally found the tone of the Japanese "Wish Room" quite engaging. While I was playing I was thoroughly engaged and I didn't feel like it was too "standard" Japanese. I loved how Kyle called Melissa ちび、 for instance. Lots of little touches in the script made it a joy to play.
I did take a look at the English script for Hotel Dusk 1, it seems like a masterful localization! I worked in localization before and who ever did this really fell in love with the theme and characters and did an outstanding job, but I can see where they embellished a little bit to add references for the US crowd (I just saw a Scooby Doo reference, for instance). Also Dunning's accent is a bit annoying, it reminds me of Chrono Cross :p
But yea I'm going to get Last Window soon. Is the story on par or better than 1?
quote:
The script in the English release of Hotel Dusk was undeniably terrific-licious. The JA release just didn't have the same feel to it. Kind of just like the opposite of how Japanese games loose their touch when they're translated to English.
It's been posted in the past and I'm sure everyone's seen it, but just in case.
They are tracing over VIDEO of ACTORS???!!
No wonder it looks so nice!!! Jesus...
Thanks for posting this Professor!
Edit: I'm reading the English script now, and it adds a LOT. Item descriptions are better, of course. But some of the new euphemisms feel a bit out of place. I also am not sure I like what they did with a few of the characters. But it does have more personality overall.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
[this message was edited by KTallguy on Mon 8 Nov 02:08] |
| Maou 2112th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):now in English" , posted Tue 9 Nov 12:06
quote:
I remember how someone was telling me that the Japanese script didn't feel like it was written first in Japanese, but instead, almost as though it was a translation from a western film. In a way, I guess Cing succeeded.
People often say this in Japanese about Murakami Haruki, too. That Cing can make its world sound so hardboiled, Hemingway-ian, noir, or "American" truly underlines how good the writing is in the original. It's unfamiliar in certain ways, but also true-to-life and fluent. And like with Murakami, I wonder if maybe the writing rings the truest for people who have lived in both cultures and 'get' the literary and thematic back-and-forth that's going on.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Spoon 2042th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):now in English" , posted Tue 9 Nov 12:36
quote:
I remember how someone was telling me that the Japanese script didn't feel like it was written first in Japanese, but instead, almost as though it was a translation from a western film. In a way, I guess Cing succeeded. People often say this in Japanese about Murakami Haruki, too. That Cing can make its world sound so hardboiled, Hemingway-ian, noir, or "American" truly underlines how good the writing is in the original. It's unfamiliar in certain ways, but also true-to-life and fluent. And like with Murakami, I wonder if maybe the writing rings the truest for people who have lived in both cultures and 'get' the literary and thematic back-and-forth that's going on.
I have a difficult time trying to imagine what noir reads like in Asian languages. It is alternately sparse and loquacious. It is caricatured/characterized by nearly mixed or overwrought metaphors (with a frequency increasing in almost direct proportion to how pulpy/potboiler it is). Its women talk in easily stereotyped ways. Still, this difficulty in comprehension on my part is funny, because Hong Kong and Japan love crime dramas just as much as any Western place in the world, so there's no doubt that there's a deep pool of material there. I just wonder how their versions of it sound. What characteristic crime drama styles are there in Japanese, writing-wise? Though comparing writing styles across languages is difficult, how would they compare to their English counterparts?
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| KTallguy 1273th Post
PSN: Hunter-KT
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Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(5):now in English" , posted Tue 9 Nov 16:16
quote:
I didn't notice the Scoobie reference though, where was it?
quote:
KYLE: Check out the wall.
LOUIS: Huh?
KYLE: There's a strange line running through it.
LOUIS: What do you think it is?
KYLE: It's a door, Louie. The wall's a door.
LOUIS: Aw, man! This is like that cartoon with the dog and the dude that's
always hungry!
I'm probably gonna grab the Japanese version because it's readily available where I am. But I'll read the script of the English one if someone goes to the trouble like for Hotel Dusk!
quote:
And like with Murakami, I wonder if maybe the writing rings the truest for people who have lived in both cultures and 'get' the literary and thematic back-and-forth that's going on.
Man I love Murakami, I think there are some parallels between the styles, but I love how Murakami spins metaphors and has very detailed, interesting ways of describing scenes, objects, and people. Hotel Dusk was a bit dry in this area (compared to the English). I will pay attention to this more in Last Window.
quote:
What characteristic crime drama styles are there in Japanese, writing-wise? Though comparing writing styles across languages is difficult, how would they compare to their English counterparts?
This is an interesting topic.
I really liked "Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World", it kind of had a noir feel to it, but Murakami isn't really a noir writer. Is that the closest equivalent in Japan?
My friend mentioned the well known "探偵 神宮寺三郎" series in Japan (Jake Hunter in the west), but I haven't played them.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Professor 2852th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(6):now in English" , posted Tue 9 Nov 19:58:
quote:
LOUIS: Aw, man! This is like that cartoon with the dog and the dude that's
always hungry!
Holy Moses, I must've blindly skimmed through that part! Thanks for pointing it out.
quote:
[snip]
What characteristic crime drama styles are there in Japanese, writing-wise? Though comparing writing styles across languages is difficult, how would they compare to their English counterparts?
Like KT said, the Jinguuji adventure game series is probably a good example of Japanese noir. you've got a heavy smoker private eye with slick greased hair. He's got connections in both the mob and the police and
his office is in Shinjuku, a borough with two faces. In the west, the expensive commercial district with tall skyscrapers and city hall. In the east, Kabukicho, the most crime infested red-light district in Tokyo.
[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 9 Nov 20:15] |
| Gojira 2665th Post
PSN: Gojira_X
XBL: Gojiraaa
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Jinguuji/ Jake Hunter" , posted Sat 13 Nov 05:09:
quote:
My friend mentioned the well known "探偵 神宮寺三郎" series in Japan (Jake Hunter in the west), but I haven't played them.
quote:
Like KT said, the Jinguuji adventure game series is probably a good example of Japanese noir. you've got a heavy smoker private eye with slick greased hair. He's got connections in both the mob and the police and his office is in Shinjuku, a borough with two faces. In the west, the expensive commercial district with tall skyscrapers and city hall. In the east, Kabukicho, the most crime infested red-light district in Tokyo.
I have one of the DS Jake Hunter collections, which I picked it up in hopes that it would be an engaging mystery, but the translation was pretty bad with quite a few grammar and spelling mistakes. If any of the characters had some kind of personality in the original games, it didn't really show. Eventually I finished it just to finish it, but was left kind of unimpressed.
Is the series popular in Japan? I'd never really heard of it before playing this.
[this message was edited by Gojira on Sat 13 Nov 05:14] |
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