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| karasu99 587th Post
  
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|  "Re(3):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sat 23 Apr 08:29  
quote:
What was wrong with Sonic Colors?! I think people are really blinded by nostalgia here. They don't want a Sonic game LIKE the old Sonic games, they literally want to play the same game again, only repackaged. I wonder how many people didn't even bother playing Sonic Colors and still bitch that Sega can't make a decent Sonic game, until they see a remake of an old one. It's like you're not interested in Sonic, JUST nostalgia.
I was thinking this, just a little bit, when I first watched the video, but I hesitated to say anything and harsh the good feelings about a very pretty looking remake. Of course it looks like a good Sonic game: Sonic 1-3 were awesome back in the early 90's.
I've been giving a lot of thought lately to the nature of nostalgia, as it relates to games; part of that is because I've been playing Final Fantasy IV Complete, and it made me think about why we keep wanting to play these games all over again. Part of it is that it's nice to play FFIV again on the PSP instead of having to drag out my copy of FFIVA on the GBA. Part of it is that I love being able to see a game that already looked beautiful, rendered even more beautiful, a la FFI and II on the PSP. But a large helping of it is how comforting it is to play a game that I feel such a connection with. I think it's the same with Sonic, but instead of giving us constant remakes and repackages, Sega has kept trying to introduce new games, and unlike Mario, which Nintendo got completely right straight out of the gate in 3D, I think it's been really hard for Sega to do the same with Sonic.
Anyway, I'm rambling while I should be doing a last hour or so of work before the weekend; anyone else care to discuss nostalgia? I'd love to hear what will undoubtedly be some great opinions on the subject.
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| Maou 2184th Post
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| "Re(3):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sat 23 Apr 10:36:
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What was wrong with Sonic Colors?!
Holy hell, I was looking at the Sonic Generations video and thinking "this looks really cool, like the kind of 3D dream Sonic I imagined playing when I was 9," and then I looked up a video of said Sonic Colors and was amazed to see that it already does the exact same thing. Woah. Truth be told, the Sonic game that should be incessantly re-released is Sonic CD.
Karasu brings up series nostalgia...I think the best situation in entertainment media is to have innovative new entries in a series that work alongside the old. Like, I feel "nostalgia" towards Mario 3 insofar as I think it's the greatest platformer in the world, but later 3D Marios are all so marvelous that I'm not consumed by a desire to replay thousands of reiterations of Mario 3. Hapless Sonic, however, has been dedicatedly awful overall (occasional Rush exceptions, and Adventure if you're charitable/crazy, and now Colors, I guess), so it's easier to get caught in a repetitive nostalgia trap due to the nonexistent future.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 23 Apr 10:53] |
| Pollyanna 3025th Post
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| "Re(4):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sat 23 Apr 14:04
quote:
Anyone else care to discuss nostalgia? I'd love to hear what will undoubtedly be some great opinions on the subject.
Sorry I missed your post earlier! Somehow I just glossed over it.
For the record, I have a real vendetta against nostalgia. I think it's very popular with our generation because we grew up with so many fantastic toys and fantastic promises made by our (much more successful) parent's generation. Becoming disillusioned adults gives the past a rose-colored tint. But more importantly, I think it makes people blind to the good things around them. Old games are great, but new games are great, too! The same goes for everything!
That's why Megaman 9 was such a fantastic experience for me, even though I'm not a huge Megaman fan. It made me say "Look! We haven't lost anything! We can still make games like this too!"
I still like FFIV, too...but I think a lot of its strength comes from its "epic" (like in a classical sense) concepts. Even if the characters and events aren't fleshed out in the detail of modern RPGs, it has very big ideas and very big themes..like an opera or an old legend or something. I feel like that makes it a timeless classic, regardless of nostalgia.
I can't stand it how Square screws with the difficulty, though. I t had a very careful, very intentional difficulty balance before and it upsets the experience when you change that.
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Hapless Sonic, however, has been dedicatedly awful overall (occasional Rush exceptions, and Adventure if you're charitable/crazy, and now Colors, I guess), so it's easier to get caught in a repetitive nostalgia trap due to the nonexistent future.
I'm not sure I quite understand. Are you saying that unlike Mario, which made a highly successful transition into a 3D environment, Sonic is left in this sea of uncertainty even after so many years and so many sequels? Like, people can accept both 2D and 3D Mario because it made the transition, but in the case of Sonic, since it never really had a stellar 3D sequel, people are stuck in the past?
(Sort of like Karasu said?)
That's why people don't want a real 3D Sonic? They've been burned too many times?
It's a shame, because so many of the 3D games were okay at their core, but utterly crushed under the weight of unnecessary BS (too many characters/minigames/cutscenes/vehicles!?/werewolf transformations).
I think I said this before, but it's funny that Sonic Colors was good not so much for what it included, but for excluding everything unnecessary. I think Sonic Generations is a great anniversary project, but it makes me irritated to see it get this "Sega finally gets it right!" when they already successfully went back to the basics.
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| Maou 2184th Post
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| "Re(5):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sat 23 Apr 14:13
quote:
unlike Mario, which made a highly successful transition into a 3D environment, Sonic is left in this sea of uncertainty even after so many years and so many sequels? Like, people can accept both 2D and 3D Mario because it made the transition, but in the case of Sonic, since it never really had a stellar 3D sequel, people are stuck in the past?
Bingo! You understand me perfectly, let's get married. It's true though, that when you have something that never evolved, all you can ever do is grasp at nostalgia, eh? I don't even like 3D action games, and yet clearly Mario Galaxy is a thing of wonder. There's always room for classics, but the foolishness surrounding latter-day Sonics guarantees an unhealthy obsession with recreating the past.
quote:
Rockman 9
But wait, isn't Rockman 9 a tricky example, since it's self-consciously recalling the past with its crummy Famicom graphics and flicker, even if it's doing something new?
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FF IV difficulty
Well, except for the infuriating tendency of your party to drop 10000000000 dollars every time they flee from the 200th fight in a row.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| mbisonhatclub 288th Post
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| "Re(6):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sat 23 Apr 17:26
quote:
unlike Mario, which made a highly successful transition into a 3D environment, Sonic is left in this sea of uncertainty even after so many years and so many sequels? Like, people can accept both 2D and 3D Mario because it made the transition, but in the case of Sonic, since it never really had a stellar 3D sequel, people are stuck in the past? Bingo! You understand me perfectly, let's get married. It's true though, that when you have something that never evolved, all you can ever do is grasp at nostalgia, eh? I don't even like 3D action games, and yet clearly Mario Galaxy is a thing of wonder. There's always room for classics, but the foolishness surrounding latter-day Sonics guarantees an unhealthy obsession with recreating the past.
That's because Mario games don't generally play themselves for you, where as the 3D Sonic games generally took over everything you did and had BOOST everywhere as if it was leading you by the hand where to go. Mario Galaxy has both a great soundtrack and excellent gameplay and a great set of worlds to explore, while Sonic babies everything.
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| Spoon 2153th Post
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| "Re(7):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sun 24 Apr 12:42
Even if Mario's 3D games weren't as good as they were (many say Super Mario Sunshine wasn't a great game, merely a good one), Nintendo did a lot to keep him in the public eye with all kinds of other, successful games. Mario isn't just platforming games, Mario is Nintendo, and his continued success is Nintendo's continued success.
Sonic had a few really good games, and some crazy offshoots (Sonic Fighters!). But he didn't have the sheer quantity of quality that Mario was dipped in, and the games that were supposed to be of "his genre" were of largely declining quality. Sonic didn't come to symbolize anything except a mascot who had some greatness at some point in the past. Unless you grew up with the good Sonic games and have only been exposed to his bad 3D games, it's kind of hard to understand why anybody should give a damn about Sonic.
... which is kind of strange, considering how Pac-Man's 3D forays have never been megahits, and though there are some awesome Pac-Man games recently (like CE), there hadn't been a good NEW Pac-Man game for years. Pac-Man banks on his one classic game more than even Sonic does, but somehow it works. Maybe it's because Pac-Man isn't aggressively marketed that we are able to simply get by from one day to the next without thinking, "man, I feel sorry for Pac-Man"? I don't know. Then again, Namco also hasn't been marginalized in the way that Sega has, and maybe some of our perception of Sonic is tied to our perceptions of Sega's bumblings and decline.
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| sibarraz
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| "Re(8):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Sun 24 Apr 22:06
I think that the big difference between mario and sonic, is that Nintendo never has changed drastically the character in all his existence. They add new characters for the spinoffs games, but the core characters are still luigi, toad, peach, yoshi, bowser, and now rosetta.
With sonic, you had seen so much shit put together in every game, changes of characters, and lots of other things that didn't make any sense
And also, their spinoffs are very poor in comparision with mario ones which are from decent to very good
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| Ishmael 4075th Post
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| "Re(6):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Wed 27 Apr 03:06
quote:
I myself am a guy very prone to nostalgia, not only in gaming matters but in most aspects of life. And I think it is not easy to separate the sheer joy of playing a game from the sensations it produced on you the first time you were exposed to it. Nor do I think that such phenomenon is a bad thing per se. Same goes for movies, books or whatever.
Don't get me wrong, if I still love playing Final Fight, Super Mario World or Ridge Racer (at least its first PSX incarnation) to this day is mainly because I enjoy them. I loved playing them 15 years ago and I still love playing them. I think they're quite entertaining games on their own. If anything, nostalgia only enhaces the experience. Those fond memories can double or triple the joy you'd normally get from playing such games.
Just my two cents, tough!
Oops, sorry, I should elaborate a bit more on what I was talking about there.
Nostalgia in and of itself is fine. Instead, it's the extremes that some will go with it that's the problem. Sometimes people will take an innocuous doo-dad and turn it into the object that summarizes their past and defines who they are. That's far too much weight to put on a toy or cartoon or some such and this inevitably leads to disappointment. All those "raping my childhood" overreactions aren't because the source material was all that great, it's because people are taking it personally. Still, if people want to worship golden idols of Optimus Prime or whatever that's their business. Instead, it's how limiting this view of nostalgia is that bothers me. With that view nothing new and nothing re-imagined can ever be as good as what they experienced when they were a child. Not only is that a boring viewpoint but it kills creativity. I know what I'm talking about here is just internet screaming and nerd rage but it is endemic of a larger problem that pops up when people start going on about the "good ol' days" and how degenerate and corrupt a world it is we live in now.
Yeesh, two posts of me rambling on about definitions. This is boring even by my standards.
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| nobinobita 905th Post
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| "Re(7):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Thu 28 Apr 13:22:
I think in most cases Nostalgia stems from a genuine love of the thing itself. It's just that many people fail to articulate that love properly which sometimes leads to the unfortunate consequence of undermining that simple intuitive affection.
Nostalgia wankery can be annoying, but I kind of prefer it to the "I'm so over it" attitude that is just as common place on the internets (my personal pet peeve :P)
I really like the old Sonic games, not cos of Nostalgia, but because they were great games when they came out, and they are great games that are still fun today. I don't have to think very hard about why I like Sonic, it's clear as day to me. I love the character, I love the graphics, I love the setting, I love the mood, I love the gameplay and the sense of exploration.
I don't think this is just because of Nostalgia. From my experience, every kid I've ever showed Sonic to has instantly taken a liking to him. I'm talking about 7 year olds that grew up on Xbox360.
Sure there are many people that are so devoted to the old games that they shut themselves off from the possibility of a new Sonic game being worthwhile. I feel sorry for these people. At the same time, this attitude should not take away from the fact that it is perfectly possible to enjoy the first Sonic titles without rose tinted glasses. I've successfully tested this theory with every little cousin and niece and nephew that I've had. They don't always respond well to every classic title (for instance, Contra is too hard) but Mario and Sonic never fail to engage.
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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Thu 28 Apr 13:31] |
| Spoon 2154th Post
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| "Re(8):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Fri 29 Apr 00:42
I don't think anybody questions that the 16-bit Sonic games were great, or that they are still great... it's just that Sonic hasn't really been great since. As a result when people ask for a good Sonic game, the only thing they can really say is "just like the ones on Genesis!" because really, what else are they going to say? The fact that a lot of people also have fond nostalgic memories of Sonic just makes that end statement moreso, even if nostalgia isn't the only driver of that sentiment.
Here's a worthwhile question, then!
If you had to do something to try to make Sonic great again, what would you do? Just making games like the old Sonic games isn't going to be enough, I think, even if the game is really good. This question isn't directed at anybody in particular; I'm honestly interested in what some of you think. There is an extremely dedicated hardcore Sonic hacking scene which understands the games and their history in ways which other, normal people simply don't, but all their efforts seem to have been put towards making games that are just like the old Sonic games that they unabashedly love. It's a respectable monomania, but not one that I think everybody here shares.
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| karasu99 592th Post
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| "Re(9):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Fri 29 Apr 02:19:
Polly, you've very nicely encapsulated what it is about FFIV, and for the record I agree about the difficulty changes. This new one seems pretty spot-on though. I find I'm not grinding at all, which is the recipe for me to keep playing a FF game to the end. Also, it's becoming very clear to me that the people who worked on this remake had an honest and clear love for the material-- the graphic, the music, it's all just beautiful and lovingly done. I really like the weird enemy sprite manipulation effects from in-battle from a technical viewpoint-- I'd love to know how they accomplished some of it. But I'm drifting OT.
quote:
Here's a worthwhile question, then!
If you had to do something to try to make Sonic great again, what would you do? Just making games like the old Sonic games isn't going to be enough, I think, even if the game is really good. This question isn't directed at anybody in particular; I'm honestly interested in what some of you think. There is an extremely dedicated hardcore Sonic hacking scene which understands the games and their history in ways which other, normal people simply don't, but all their efforts seem to have been put towards making games that are just like the old Sonic games that they unabashedly love. It's a respectable monomania, but not one that I think everybody here shares.
Argh, this is an indicator of why nostalgia is so problematic. For one thing, this isn't just a question of the games-- for me at least game nostalgia ropes in a bunch of other things; for instance, where I was at in my life at the time and the store where I first bought the game (for Sonic 1 it was a Best Products in Towson, MD, a physically beautiful building that was demolished about a decade ago). See what I mean? I'm even talking about the freaking building where I bought it!
Regarding the question though... honestly I don't know. Sega seems to always know exactly what will get on fans nerves and then often does exactly that, but I don't want to couch my answer with what it shouldn't be. For me, I would look for beauty, fun, and original material. Megaman 9 has the first two, although it gets pretty close to older material in a lot of cases. This is definitely the case with something like 90% of the Sonic fan made games. But then I always view them as something like a programming experiment that new games-- in other words, their programmers' goal was either fix what they perceived as wrong about an existing game or to duplicate what made the older games fun. Although perhaps I'm being too charitable, since that particular community verges on the compulsive sometimes. To be fair, there are lots of game fan communities out there with similar fixations, but the Sonic fan game community is just especially prominent.
Maybe I should get around to answering the actual question though: what would I do? This may sound a little dumb, but I would make an over the shoulder game where the player needed to react to obstacles and jumps and take different branching paths (EDIT: NOT a racing game against other players-- I think that ruins the sense of speed and freedom that comes with running fast). For me, the very best parts of the 3D Sonic games were portions that played like this. It can easily convey the kinds of speed that made the Genesis era games so much fun-- and for the record I really never cared for 'exploration style' Sonic 2D gameplay. The speed is where the fun is, with some paths being more desirable than others.
For the record, I actually quite liked the Sonic Adventure games. I never cared for the walking around portions, but the actual stage content was quite good.
[this message was edited by karasu99 on Fri 29 Apr 05:20] |
| Nobinobita 906th Post
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| "Re(9):Sonic Fighter III: New Generation" , posted Wed 4 May 16:29:
quote:
Here's a worthwhile question, then!
If you had to do something to try to make Sonic great again, what would you do? Just making games like the old Sonic games isn't going to be enough, I think, even if the game is really good. This question isn't directed at anybody in particular; I'm honestly interested in what some of you think.
My dream Sonic Game:
-3d Free roaming Sonic Game that draws inspiration from the opening and ending to Sonic CD instead of trying to ape the 2d experience of classic Sonic in 3d.
-Gameplay is a combination of Jet Set Radio and Shinobi.
-3d free roaming gameplay of Jet Set Radio, where half the fun is figuring out how to get from point A to point B.
-Tricks build up speed and attack power.
-Killing enemies in succession also build up attack power ala Shinobi.
-Combat will focus on building enough momentum to take out enemies. As the game progresses, have to build up more and more momentum to defeat enemies and bosses.
-Shift focus from barreling ahead forward constantly to maintaining top velocity in a more intimate and controlled environment.
-Focus not simply on speed but agility.
-Gameplay flow: run-->trick-->attack-->combo into more strings of tricks and attacks. How long can you go?
-Sample scenarios:
-Sonic has just cleared a level full of enemies that can be killed with the regular jump attack or spin dash. But suddenly he comes across a heavily armored turtle robot. Regular attacks just ricochet off. How to defeat the enemy? Build up momentum. Back off and come at the enemy with a running start, do a trick off a railing that gives you enough speed boost to pierce the enemy's armor.
-Boss Fight: Boss is giant puffer fish, protected by turtles. Puffer fish covered in Spikes, regular attacks don't just glance off, you'll lose your rings. Solution: use environment to build up speed, build up enough momentum to kill first turtle, continue combo across turtles, building up to super attack on boss that smashes through its spikes.
-Use your environment: Goad boss into destroying a column, creating a bridge upwards towards the arched cieling, allowing you to run a loop de loop to build up into more powerful attacks.
-Boss battle with Giant crab. Rubble everywhere, no clear paths in site to run and do tricks. Solution: Wait for crab to strike at you with giant claw. Dodge at last minute. Force of claw kicks up rubble. Do tricks off the rubble to launch yourself super high into the air, building up into super drop attack.
I think this game would be super fun!
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[this message was edited by Nobinobita on Wed 4 May 16:33] |
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"Sonic 4" , posted Tue 19 Oct 04:19
con langosta y camarón!
