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| karasu99 619th Post
  
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|  "Programming dork talk" , posted Tue 17 May 04:15  
Moving this portion of the conversation here in case this discussion goes anywhere.
I know there are more than a few programmers here (probably not just for games) and I'd love to hear any talk anyone would care to contribute about choices they make regarding process, tools, and platforms.
Here is a small contribution from me to start: for prototyping, playing around, and even for more artistic endeavors, I often play with Processing, a Java-based language that has been heavily used for art, data visualization, and (oddly enough) integration with mechanical devices using Arduino, another cool language that I have not played with. Yet.
It's fun because you can be up and running with it fairly quickly, its syntax is straightforward, and best of all, its development team is very open to incorporating user-requested changes.
In fact, I would recommend it to non-programmers as well, since just messing around with it can result in some very beautiful result.
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| Loona 409th Post
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|  "Re(1):Programming dork talk" , posted Tue 17 May 18:51
I have some experience with some programming, but none of it has involved graphics (at least all forms of screen output I've learned about only involved some form of text - if I wanted to make a pixel of my chosen color wherever I'd want on the screen I wouldn't know where to startt looking, or what language to use, really, nor am I aware of industry standart image formats that are viable to use in 2D game art in the actual projects), so this is interesting to me.
With little to contribute, I might as well mention a couple of things I saw mentioned here and there that could be relevant/useful: on another forum, I saw some praise for XNA, based on C#, and in the Earthquake thread here was a mention of of Flixel, apparently based on Flash/ActionScript(3).
Hopefully I'll be done with FFXI soon enough to actually start messing around productively with something of the sort, and maybe this thread will help me mak some informed choices by then.
"Beat the machine that works in your head!" - Guano Apes "Open Your Eyes"
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| KTallguy 1311th Post
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| "Re(1):Programming dork talk" , posted Tue 17 May 20:07
My girlfriend introduced me to Processing, but it doesn't seem geared towards games.
Flixel is good because not only is it really brainless, but tons of people are using it, so tutorials abound. For someone like me who never coded before, it's a lifesaver.
Continuing the previous conversation, Karasu, I think I want to learn Unity, but how much real programming do I need to do? It seems like I can set parameters and drive a car around and stuff in the demo levels, but building that from scratch must require C# or something, right?
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| Karasu99 620th Post
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| "Re(2):Programming dork talk" , posted Tue 17 May 22:19
quote:
My girlfriend introduced me to Processing, but it doesn't seem geared towards games.
Flixel is good because not only is it really brainless, but tons of people are using it, so tutorials abound. For someone like me who never coded before, it's a lifesaver.
Continuing the previous conversation, Karasu, I think I want to learn Unity, but how much real programming do I need to do? It seems like I can set parameters and drive a car around and stuff in the demo levels, but building that from scratch must require C# or something, right?
You're right, Processing is not especially good for making games. But, it is really good for prototyping graphical effects and stuff like that. I'm using it right now to sketch out a random cave generator.
And regarding Unity, yes, to do most everything you need to use code. You can use either java-script (weird, it seems that my normally spelled js here is getting autocorrected-- Professor, do you have an auto-replace here?) or C#, but I would strongly suggest you use C#, since there is a lot you can't do with JS. C# itself is very easy to pick up, once you get started.
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| karasu99 621th Post
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| "Re(4):Programming dork talk" , posted Wed 18 May 14:10
quote:
Karasu, do you program for your career? Since you were young? Do you have any recommended watching/reading for learning the fundamentals of programming? Like ... introducing basic concepts and stuff... I understand the underlying logic in most cases, but from what I understand programming languages all have a common thread of logic and understanding, but hell if I know exactly what that is ;)
Haw, that's cold-- since I was young! Kidding, actually yes, I started when I was very young with very simple stuff, but then I did no programming except for web stuff for years. For the last five years or so I've done it as my career. 90% of what I do is Flash/Actionscript 3 work, with some Unity and some iOS thrown in here and there. I also do a lot of programming for fun-- it's sort of like my equivalent of drawing or painting.
One of the best books I've seen on the subject for general programming is called the Object Oriented Thought Process. There is some chance it may be a little dense if you've not done much programming already, and if so, I'd suggest going straight for C# with O'Reilly's books or if you would rather go the Actionscript 3 route, this one is an excellent, excellent starting point. I hope the Amazon Japan links are ok-- you were saying you are in Japan at the moment. I apologize if you do better with video tutorials-- I have always been a book guy, and so that's all I can suggest.
As far as Flixel vs C# etc., you may want to check out Microsoft XNA, which is a platform for developing for things like Windows and Xbox360. It uses C# language-wise and is a lot easier to bring things to the screen with, since a lot of the dull crap like displaying bitmap data is already handled for you.
I don't think Flixel is a bad way to go though. It's easy to use, and a lot of the grunt work is done, like pausing when the screen loses focus and handling sprite sheet animation. I was amazed when I first tried it and got a Gameboy-looking game running in a few hours.
I should also mention, just in general, that a great intro to iOS game programming is Cocos2d. There is also a Macintosh-targeted branch. You can think of it as the iOS equivalent of XNA-- you can get a very basic game onto a device in a few hours (or a VERY VERY basic game to a device in a few minutes). It does, though, require some basic knowledge of Objective-C, which is not a language for the faint of heart.
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| karasu99 623th Post
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| "Re(6):Programming dork talk" , posted Thu 19 May 13:42
quote:
I know about XNA and yea it's pretty popular these days. Would you say that Unity is more flexible/useful? XNA seems like it's more limited but really what do I know :)
I will check out Cocos2D too, but maybe I should focus on Flash first, than C#. Don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Back to work with me!
The only thing I don't like about Unity is that it is specifically for 3D stuff, but that may be your thing. With Unity you can target a bunch of different platforms-- iOS, Wii, Windows, Web... it's not very limiting. But you're right, with XNA you can pretty much just do Windows and Xbox. I would go with Unity out of the two.
Yeah, I would hold off on Cocos2D. It's fun, but... Objective-C is dense stuff!
One last thing to add is that if you're anything like me, all the programming technique and syntax stuff will seem really artificial and weird. But then one day it will all just click for you and it will all make sense. For me it took like 6 months. So hang in there, even if the going is tough.
Feel free to hit me up if you have programming questions, either here or in email.
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| karasu99 626th Post
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| "Re(8):Programming dork talk" , posted Sat 21 May 13:49
quote:
Just a quick Q-- what does everyone think about the indies field and outlooks to its future? When looking at the Japanese scene, it seems almost if the indies is more vibrant than the commercial sector. Granted they need to go budget and 2D, the freedom they have makes them shine. The market is nowhere as huge of course, but it's big enough that there's stores that sell them on shelves.
I'm embarassed to say that java-script is my favorite language. No enviornment needed, no compiling needed, on-the-fly, integrates to web. It's still a far way to go from ActionScript though. I wish I could try out Flixel but I don't have the enviornment!
Well! Some of the best games I've played in recent years have been developed by 'indie' studios (in many cases just one or two people). I like how it resembles so closely the earliest days of game development, where it was often just some guy in his basement making an incredible game that somehow made it into my hands and onto my old Atari 8-bit computer. Big budget studios in a lot of ways have gotten trapped in extremely risk averse behavior, while tiny indie studio can afford to take a chance. So in theory this should result in much more enjoyable games.
Of course I now that the Japanese indie development is a completely different thing, right? I'd love to hear more about the Japanese side of things from anyone who cares to talk about it. I do know of and love the games of this guy, but he can't be representative.
java-script is not embarrassing in the slightest. It's versatile, easily read, and for some reason I find it to be strangely inscrutable-- which is to say I suck at it! I took a look for a Flixel AS2 version, and unfortunately Flixel uses the Bitmap and BitmapData method of handling graphics, which is unfortunately unavailable in AS2.
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| Spoon 2160th Post
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| "Re(4):Programming dork talk" , posted Sat 21 May 22:44
quote:
The things that attracted me to Java are portability and ... well Minecraft. But I guess it has plenty of limitations. Makes more sense to learn some basic C# and use the portability of the Unity engine.
One thing about C# is that reads like Java. C# allows you to do things you can't do in Java, and has some conveniences that aren't in Java, but by design it looks like a lot like Java. While you'll need to have reference pages on hand for the names of particular things, going back and forth between these two languages once you have a grasp of one of them is particularly easy.
There are a lot of very fundamental programming concepts that take some time to get used to (variable type/assignment/scope/comparison, functions, control flow....), but once you have them learning other languages is much easier.
quote:
doujin scene
I've been an enormous fanboy of Japan's doujin games for... literally over a decade now! Scary. One thing that Japan has that North America doesn't have are conventions and physical stores where doujin games are sold. I can't tell you how impressed I was to walk up the floors of a shop and find an entire floor of doujin software, complete with employee-drawn comment cards and demo displays for some of the games! There is online distribution for doujin games in Japan, but it seems really fractured, and for better or for worse there is no DRM of any kind. Online distribution of indie games in the West has really picked up lately with Steam and XBL (though there are very few games with substantial sales on XBLIG). I think certainly the most interesting case is that of the localization company Carpe Fulgur, who brought an English translated Recettear to Steam and some other digital distro channels: the game sold north of 100,000 copies, which is more than it has ever sold in Japan, and some of the distribution methods had no DRM (though not Steam, which I believe was where the bulk of the sales were).
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Aside:
To think of "doujin" as from Japan and "indie" as not-from-Japan, superficially it has always seemed to me that the no-budget doujin games have had much more charming visuals than the indie games have. That is not always true, but I can certainly think of more times when I have been charmed by the sprites of a doujin game than I have by the sprites or models of indie games. Having tons of reference material and subject matter that the audience might already be interested in (Touhou etc.) certainly helps, but the importance of having immediately charming visuals that are charming in screenshots and in motion really cannot be overstated.
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| Professor 3064th Post
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| "Re(5):Programming dork talk" , posted Sat 28 May 16:11:
One of the things I still wonder is whether doujin games and indie games should be considered the same category. When explaining to westerners about doujin games, it's just easier to call them "indies".
However, even in Japan there seems to be somewhat of a gap between doujin and indies. They're both small scale productions, and it's hard to say where the line is. My own take on it is, doujin games are more focused on presentation, let it be storyline or aesthetics. On the other hand, indies games, at least those in Japan, focuses more towards game system and programming. In general, audiences show more interest towards doujin games than indies because they like being entertained by stories and characters.
The doujin market is quite big. It's not mainstream, but it's big enough that most cities in Japan have doujin shops that have a floor or two dedicated to them. Their products often times look very professional, wrapped in DVD cases. Some works are derivative, like adult games that borrow characters from anime or manga. But nowadays, the more popular games are complete original creations, let it be novel games or shmups.
In fact, there's an interesting phenomenon: people make doujin games about doujin games. One example is the Touhou doujin shooter series. The series, developed by a single guy, has been such a hit that people have made fighting games and whatnot out of the characters. The horror novel series Higurashi no Naku Koro ni was another hit all-original doujin game. It was successful enough that publishers picked up the rights to bring it to commercial.
But those of course are just the success stories. Most doujin games come and go and gets forgotten.
Example of a Doujin shop -all these products are indies/noncommercial.
Then, there's also doujin games that makes you wonder. - Nico
[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 28 May 22:41] |
| Zepy 1565th Post
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| "Re(6):Programming dork talk" , posted Mon 30 May 03:55
One of the indies game developers in Japan had previously explained his own interpretation of the difference between doujin/indies in Japan.
Doujin games usually have a physical product, a real production cost (ie paying amateur artists or musicans for their contribution), and usually pay for a booth at an event to sell their game.
So the subject and the gameplay for doujin games are always naturally skewed towards popular genres, because of the natural pressure generated by the amount of commitment they have to put into the project.
They also only have about 8 hours during an event to sell all they can, so it's really hard to sell if it can't interest people to decide to buy it within that time period (it's really depressing to print 100 copies of your hard work and return home with 98 copies at the end of the day)
Indies games in Japan usually refer to games that are developed and provided free on the internet, and will not be sold through events or otherwise. Usually the only commitment is their own free time, so a lot of originality usually shows up in these games, because they don't feel the pressure to have to sell it, there are no physical production costs to worry about, and they can put it up on the internet for years and people can stumble upon it any time, as opposed to 8 hours at a doujin event.
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| Professor 3065th Post
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| "Re(10):Programming dork talk" , posted Tue 31 May 14:08
Zepy posts a pretty accurate picture there, though I'd like to add a few things on the lower end of doujin making.
1. For instance, setting a circle/table at Comiket costs around 9000 yen ($111); 1000 for the paperwork and around 7500 for the table if your papers get accepted. So if you want to at least break even, you're going to need to try hard.
2. However, a lot of people there don't really sell their stuff with profit being their goal. For them, it's more about participating and expressing themselves.
3. A bad, bad example of doujin software making. An old associate of mine was once in a really tight deadline because his work was killing him and he had no time to make a game, albeit he registered for Comiket months back. As a last resort, he made desktop accessories in the 18 hours before the event. At just around 200-300 yen, it sold damn well although not enough to cover the table costs.
4. Nowadays, you can do doujin activities without going to events because there's online shops and Download sales. So the borderline between indies and doujins are a bit thinner than what it used to be.
5. Personally, I see people pointing at non-moe games as indies and moe games as doujin. It's a horrible way to distinguish it, but that seems to be the general consensus nowadays in Japan.
quote:
Can someone discuss what it is that separates a doujin studio from a game studio that only employs a few people? I guess in starting to think about what differentiates indie from doujin I could not come up with a reasonable distinction between a doujin studio, and, say, the guys who made Super Meat Boy (just for example) on XBLA. After all, didn't Melty Blood start out as a doujin game before becoming an arcade game? It seems the distinction is rather small.
Karasu: I think the distinction is small too. The general concensus is that doujin=noncommercial. Doujin circles typically aren't incorporated so they can't sell titles in the consumer market themselves; they get a publisher to do that. Such as in the case of Melty Blood, the doujin circle (French Bread) took on an offer from Ecole Software.
In some rare cases, doujin circles realize that their activities are going far beyond that of small-scale activity and they turn into a company. Type-moon is one such example. Once they turn commercial, they can't sell at circle tables at events as far as I understand.
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| Moo
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| "Re(2):Re(10):Programming dork talk" , posted Thu 2 Jun 11:18
I'd like to get an opinion on something from the people here, if nobody minds me asking.
I've been looking at developing games for a long time, but my focus is art/animation, although I've done some scripting and expressions for some game engines. I do have a few programmer friends, but they're always busy with their day jobs. I've been thinking about learning a programming language so that I don't have to rely on others, or to help fill in the gaps. The problem is, I don't have much patience and I can't really afford to spend too much time learning a programming language.
I'm currently looking at making stuff for Unity, and I know Unity supports several languages. What I'd like to ask is, out of those languages, which one is the easiest, most efficient/useful to learn that can preferably also be applied elsewhere, and how much time would it take to learn and then use it?
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| karasu99 631th Post
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| "Re(3):Re(10):Programming dork talk" , posted Thu 2 Jun 12:10
quote:
I'd like to get an opinion on something from the people here, if nobody minds me asking.
I've been looking at developing games for a long time, but my focus is art/animation, although I've done some scripting and expressions for some game engines. I do have a few programmer friends, but they're always busy with their day jobs. I've been thinking about learning a programming language so that I don't have to rely on others, or to help fill in the gaps. The problem is, I don't have much patience and I can't really afford to spend too much time learning a programming language.
I'm currently looking at making stuff for Unity, and I know Unity supports several languages. What I'd like to ask is, out of those languages, which one is the easiest, most efficient/useful to learn that can preferably also be applied elsewhere, and how much time would it take to learn and then use it?
This may have been discussed in more detail above, but the short story on Unity, as far I can say: java-script and C# are your options (maybe more now, I have not seen the latest version). Both are easy, java-script being a little easier maybe, but C# is much more versatile. If you want to have your newfound skills translate elsewhere, go with C#.
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| karasu99 633th Post
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| "Re(5):Re(10):Programming dork talk" , posted Fri 3 Jun 00:30
quote:
I've never thought about Unity before. How is its 2D graphics support?
If it's native to 3D, I'm assuming you'll need to swap textures on a flat plane to simulate animations in 2D.
Its 2D graphics support is pretty nonexistent. Most 2D looking games I've seen made with it are just 3D with fixed perspective. The effect is not bad. Professor, it may be a decent choice for you since it can be coded in JS! I think there is a free version, and at the very least a demo version, and the full version is not outrageously expensive, if I recall correctly.
quote:
Speaking of 3D, I just heard about Blender, for 3D modelling and apparently meant to work with Python.
I don't know how viable a game-making tool it is (I read some engines can import 3D models from different programs, I don't know if this is included), but as a free resource, I guess it can be a useful tool to learn some concepts.
I've used Blender some, and I was surprised how far it's come in the latest version. It's a lot easier to use than some of the heavy hitters like Maya and 3DS Max. In terms of being able to use models from it in different programs, you can output to a bunch of different formats, and most engines support multiple formats. Maya models and animations seem to work pretty well with Unity, by the way.
Also it's worth noting that you can find tons of models for free and for cheap online, especially if you need a fairly generic object. Google 3D Warehouse is not bad, as is TurboSquid. TurboSquid tends to be of more even quality, and you can find incredible looking (and possibly very expensive) models there.
Me, I pretty much suck at 3D modeling, so I rely on external sources.
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| KTallguy 1334th Post
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| "Re(7):Re(10):Programming dork talk" , posted Tue 28 Jun 18:51
Just a quick update on my side, I'm going through this ActionScript for Flash MX book!
Right now, I can do pretty much nothing, but I AM learning all this neat vocabulary, about referencing instances, creating variables, etc etc. Some of the information is old though. I did the first tutorial and I had to downgrade the Flash Engine for version six or it would infinite loop........ 
I feel like such a newbie though. There is this one software out there now, StencylWorks, that appears to use Flixel as a base and do the programming stuff for you, and you can make flash games in it. But I kind of want to understand some fundamentals, so that I can at least look at the flash code under the hood and get a sense of what's going on.
Play to win... or to have fun too! :)
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| karasu99 675th Post
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| "Re(8):Re(10):Programming dork talk" , posted Wed 29 Jun 02:17
quote:
Just a quick update on my side, I'm going through this ActionScript for Flash MX book!
Right now, I can do pretty much nothing, but I AM learning all this neat vocabulary, about referencing instances, creating variables, etc etc. Some of the information is old though. I did the first tutorial and I had to downgrade the Flash Engine for version six or it would infinite loop........
I feel like such a newbie though. There is this one software out there now, StencylWorks, that appears to use Flixel as a base and do the programming stuff for you, and you can make flash games in it. But I kind of want to understand some fundamentals, so that I can at least look at the flash code under the hood and get a sense of what's going on.
That's awesome! I'm glad things are going well on the Flash front. I agree with you about seeing the internals-- I've played with some 'drag and drop' type environments before and they don't satisfy that programming 'itch' for me.
It's hard to tell what's behind Stencyl-- it seems to be a Flex app that uses Flixel or something like it like you said. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out in more detail!
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