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| Iggy 9890th Post
  
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
     
     
     
     
     
|  "Re(2):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Sun 19 Apr 07:49  
I don't remember Rasputin being gay... I think his scenario involves him spreading love to the whole world, and it includes both genders. At most, he's bisexual? If you go that way, Dimitri and Morrigan can also be counted as bisexual (except Dimitri needs to put a girl wig on the guys. Dude, you're only fooling yourself here). Well, they're not human and they do that to feed, so I'm not sure.
Yoshitora in SS0 is OK with almost anyone. Even Poppy is not safe.
King from AoF is at the very least a crossdressing female. I remember a slew of insinuations about her inclinations (like Takuma not wanting Yuri to join King's Team in a KOF, and refusing to explain why). You can also see the King/Ryo romance as something Takuma is forcing on his son who hasn't shown a lot of interest in women until now...
Oh, and K' and Maxima have a very close relationship. At the very least, they're very good flatmates.
But yeah, it's generally rare in Japanese games (and do we really know anything about Bridget's taste in partners, really?), and even more that it would be confirmed by the creators. Plus the fact that super effeminate men are often hasty classified as gay in the west (Rasputin!), without being (always) the case in Japan.
Oh! There's actually quite a few more! Everyone in Justice Gakuen is bisexual! Most of the characters from the season 5 of Jojo in ASB are suspiciously good team mates! Chris Redfield in MvC3!
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
(I'm joking, obviously).
End of Spoiler
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| chazumaru 1471th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
|  "Re(3):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Sun 19 Apr 21:13
quote:
What about Benimaru from KOF?
100% straight, although it was not obvious by western pop culture conventions of the 90's.
The strangest thing about Vice is not her sexual inclination but rather her unexplainable love for American Comics. It's like if you told me Ramon's day job was neurosurgeon. Sure, it might be in the booklet, but I'd still think it's a typo.
Maxima (who is at least interested in brunettes, according to the Vice video above) is less likely homosexual than robosexual. His lifelong partner before K' was Rocky, the 2P character from Robo Army.
I think we should not underestimate the breakthrough made by Mortal Kombat X, which is a 4 Million sales type of game intended for a presumably more mainstream and conservative audience than Western fans of SNK games. Of course, the devs made a relatively obscure foreign-sounding character homosexual, rather than to take a chance on Johnny Cage, Jax or even Sonya Blade's daughter. But I think it's a positive step towards more variety among video game characters and I don't see the point of minimizing or criticizing the coverage it is eliciting.
Même Narumi est épatée !
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| Iggy 9892th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Mon 20 Apr 07:58
quote:
I find that NRS is handling this subject better than a certain BBS that was once accused of being a gay forum.
Now, now, let's not call anyone names.
Personally, the reason why NRS's new character fails to impress me is that it's an entirely western story, about an American developer tackling an issue that pertains to the American society. It makes sense in that context, and only there. All in all, there is no reason to claim this as an important milestone for fighting games: if it is an important milestone, it's for the US/western video game industry, nothing else. There is no such thing as fighting game history when it comes to societal commentary: gay history is too different in the US (and the west) from what it is in Japan (and in Asia) to be any relevant.
From the history of LGBT characters in Japanese video games point of view, there are a couple of tropes that need to be removed from the conversation before we can start:
* Flaming queens that are merely there for the joke because guys who behave like girls are so funny, and anyway it will probably turn out they were straight all along (the Hard Leather Gay angle). Quality examples: Jean-Pierre in Fighters History, Kin&Gin in God Hand. [Note: a Bizarro version of that point applies to the west as well. Every time someone calls Benimaru, Balrog/Vega, or any effeminate male created by a Japanese designer "gay", take a shot. And then spit in their face, because that's a prime example of internalized homophobia right here].
* Gay guys in games mostly targeted towards women (the Sengoku Basara syndrome) or lesbians in games mostly targeted towards guys (I don't have an example in mind, but I suppose stretching Vice and Mature to being an item would fit in this category?)
Another borderline trope we may or may not want to drop depending on how desperate we are at that point of the discussion:
* characters from games happening in historical Japan that try to revive the period as accurately as possible (which is why Basara is excluded from that point). Because escapism in a period where social codes were different is not different from ambiguous peplums or casual references to a fantasized Greek antiquity. Quality examples: anyone from Samurai Spirits (only in a purely modern LGBT discussion. It is obviously perfectly normal for a game trying to have historical accuracy to have a rich guy paying a male prostitute in Edo or a warlord banging his young trainee).
Ah, and finally, we have the issue of talking about a media where romance is not always the focus of the action. In other words, we will probably never know the sexual orientation of Zangief, or Cammy, or Jill Valentine, or Hauzer, until they get a specific character development that at least tells us what gender(s) they would rather put in their beds (hence my previous comment about Bridget: a cross-dresser doesn't have to be LGBT). So maybe looking for hints like we were still in the celluloid closet 60 years later IS a valid approach? Is "canon" that important, as long as shipping is possible? That's a question for the ages.
All in all, you cannot have a discussion on LGBT characters in Japanese video games regardless of the LGBT situation in Japan. You also need to keep in mind that the LGBT label is a highly culturally obtuse concept that only make sense to a tiny portion of humanity, and just because we happen to be part of it doesn't mean we can use it to judge other cultures in pure terms of "progress", or to call them "backward", nor of whether a person fro these cultures is "gay" or not according to our criteria. Yes, people in Japan tend to have opinions about LGBT people that are fairly offensive to most western eyes, and their video games reflect that. They also don't seem to have had gay bashing in the last 50 years as far as I'm aware? And oddly enough, someone at Capcom Japan decided everyone in Justice Gakuen would be openly bi without any obvious reason except "why not", which is not something that would have gone smoothly in the US (while nobody in Japan seem to have thrown a fit about it).
And let's remember that the whole turmoil about Poison was because of her reception in the US: Capcom Japan was totally cool with her being transgender. Oh, and should we talk about Katherine/Birdo? I wouldn't say "he's a dude who thinks he's a chick" is a particularly progressive way of talking about trans people, but it's still miles ahead of the uneasy belly dance NOA did during several years about this character. Is she a cis-female now in the US? I don't even know.
Now, NRS and Kung Jin. I don't play enough western video games to know whether LGBT characters are commonplace there or not. I would think they are not, which is why there is such a buzz around Kung Jin (I believe WRPG with dating elements now almost always have a gay and lesbian menu at least?).
So yes, if in 2015 a character alluded to being gay in a cutscene so subtle that the creator has to take on Twitter to out him out of the closet is headline-worthy, then by all means, let's talk about it! Let's talk about how American video games are so conservative that the boldest foreground of progressive societal commentary is having a character feeling uneasy about people not accepting him, and another guy saying "nah, it's OK", the end. Is it the 80s? Aren't there plenty of gay characters, whose identity is stated far more boldly than that one meek cutscene, on American TV, in American movies, in American comic books from mega corporations Marvel and DC? Or did I dream the last 20 years of American pop-culture after I passed out drinking too much gin during a Dynasty re-run?
The headline here is that American video games are amazingly shy compared to the society that produced them. No gay guy in the US or Europe needs Kung Jin. We don't need that coded nod to feel like we're accepted. Thanks, NRS, it's still better than a gay bashing in a backyard, but that doesn't make any difference to us. Plenty of straight guys can pat themselves in the back now on the internet to show how progressive and open-minded they are, so good for them, I guess?
Let's not talk about everyone else that is part of this industry and still write only about straight white dudes. Let's focus on that puny act of "progressiveness", and give every other conservative writer a pass because "that's what will sell according to the focus group".
But yeah. Go Kung Jin! I hope you find true love one day, before someone rips your throat off and then bash your skull open and then pull your intestines through your mouth and then breaks your spine and then cut your head off and then tear your eyes off and then rips your chest and then tears out your heart (which would still be beating by the way) and then push it in your mouth and then cut your arms and your legs off and then you're dead.
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| TheRedKnight 395th Post
Silver Customer
| "Re(7):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Mon 20 Apr 17:34
quote:
I find that NRS is handling this subject better than a certain BBS that was once accused of being a gay forum.
Now, now, let's not call anyone names.
Personally, the reason why NRS's new character fails to impress me is that it's an entirely western story, about an American developer tackling an issue that pertains to the American society. It makes sense in that context, and only there. All in all, there is no reason to claim this as an important milestone for fighting games: if it is an important milestone, it's for the US/western video game industry, nothing else. There is no such thing as fighting game history when it comes to societal commentary: gay history is too different in the US (and the west) from what it is in Japan (and in Asia) to be any relevant.
From the history of LGBT characters in Japanese video games point of view, there are a couple of tropes that need to be removed from the conversation before we can start:
* Flaming queens that are merely there for the joke because guys who behave like girls are so funny, and anyway it will probably turn out they were straight all along (the Hard Leather Gay angle). Quality examples: Jean-Pierre in Fighters History, Kin&Gin in God Hand. [Note: a Bizarro version of that point applies to the west as well. Every time someone calls Benimaru, Balrog/Vega, or any effeminate male created by a Japanese designer "gay", take a shot. And then spit in their face, because that's a prime example of interna
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Thanks for taking your time to share some sensibility, Iggy.
What I meant by NRS handling the subject better was a poke at the level of conversation in this thread and not a nod at NRS. One gay character in a game that's obviously shoehorned in for a culture that can't process anything without some level of hysteria is not very impressive. I'm surprised they didn't limit Kung Jin as a pre-order bonus for a specific limited edition called Mortal Kombat X: Gay Edition.
Without calling any names or calling anyone names, I don't think making a list, analyzing or speculating the sexuality of video game characters is an appropriate step following an empty "achievement" made by a single franchise.
Sure, they are just fictional people, but making a list of "confirmed" LGBT characters seems insensitive. And then to take that even further by speculating the sexuality of further characters based on their looks is just downright crass. Sharing "back in the day" stories about homophobia doesn't really bring anything to the table either, IMO. They just reassert the views some people still have. In different circumstances a story you tell about a suspected gay video game character might have an entirely different response. It's entirely possible that "back in the day" there were people in a certain Turkish town who thought everyone who spent their time in an arcade were "flaming homosexuals".
At most, the amount of information people have about, for example Zangief's or Benimaru's sexuality, isn't much more than what I can tell from the avatars, usernames, signatures and responses I can see in this thread. Would it be OK for me to make a list of MMCafe users that I think are gay? I think that a BBS for such a niche field should show more respect for the subject and not put themselves before the matter. Or join a BBS dedicated to Seduction Of The Innocent and post there instead.
I mentioned Fox from Bloody Roar in my first response. If you want to speculate something related to a fighting character's sexuality, then let's contemplate the connection between how and why he was killed off from the series.
Sorry if I come across as aggressive, but fictional characters with androgynous and effeminate traits like Benimaru were my heroes when I was a small town teenager who was accused of being a "flaming homosexual". So, I've been on a "list" and I can tell you it's not very nice.
videograpple.tumblr.com/
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| Just a Person 1643th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(7):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Mon 20 Apr 21:59:
quote:
As for Kung Jin, yes let's not underestimate the attempt to have only gay character without romantic partner and with heavy shame, a universe that has only two romance (one couple is dead and irrelevant, the other is divorced with grown upchildren).
To be fair, MKX introduced a third romance with Takeda and Jacqui (some people could consider it a love triangle considering the bromance between Takeda and Kung Jin, but they seem to be just friends), and the Story Mode seems to indicate that the divorced couple may not be divorced anymore by the end of this game...
Back to Kung Jin's topic, I guess everything that could be said about it was already said. His inclusion is a first step, but it NRS really wants to discuss sexual orientation and homophobia, these topics will need to be better addressed in the next games.
EDIT: On the other hand, I really have to commend NRS for showing Kung Jin as much more than MK's first gay character. The guy has a defined personality, with his past as a thief (and how in the present he saves a thief in Outworld from execution because of that), his arrogance towards Cassie's leadership, the way he deals with being related to the Great Kung Lao (and also with the Kung Lao we actually know)... plus, his gameplay stands out with the bow (which can either be used to shoot arrows or as a staff).
Unlike most characters added in Mortal Kombat ever since MK4, I can really see Kung Jin (and most of the other MKX newcomers, as well) returning for the future MK games.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
[this message was edited by Just a Person on Wed 22 Apr 23:10] |
| nobinobita 1393th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(8):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Wed 22 Apr 16:08:
quote:
I find that NRS is handling this subject better than a certain BBS that was once accused of being a gay forum.
Now, now, let's not call anyone names.
Personally, the reason why NRS's new character fails to impress me is that it's an entirely western story, about an American developer tackling an issue that pertains to the American society. It makes sense in that context, and only there. All in all, there is no reason to claim this as an important milestone for fighting games: if it is an important milestone, it's for the US/western video game industry, nothing else. There is no such thing as fighting game history when it comes to societal commentary: gay history is too different in the US (and the west) from what it is in Japan (and in Asia) to be any relevant.
From the history of LGBT characters in Japanese video games point of view, there are a couple of tropes that need to be removed from the conversation before we can start:
* Flaming queens that are merely there for the joke because guys who behave like girls are so funny, and anyway it will probably turn out they were straight all along (the Hard Leather Gay angle). Quality examples: Jean-Pierre in Fighters History, Kin&Gin in God Hand. [Note: a Bizarro version of that point applies to the west as well. Every time someone calls Benimaru, Balrog/Vega, or any effeminate male created by a Japanese designer "gay", take a shot. And then spit in their face, because that's a prime example of interna
[/U
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Sorry I made you feel marginalised. That wasn't my intention, but that's what happened. I apologize sincerely.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. You bring up a lot of good points.
Your experience reminded me of a friend of mine. He is from the Philippines and was picked on a lot for being gay. He also LOVED fighting games. One of the only ways for him to stick it to the people picking on him was by getting exceptionally great at fighting games. He would always pick the most flamboyant men and women and just dominate at the arcades. This was cathartic for him, beating down his oppressors from the safe (yet emotionally intense) confines of a video game. And in the process he also made a lot of new friends.
I'm reminded of him cos one of his best characters was Benimaru. Benimaru isn't strictly "gay" but he still really appealed to my friend in a way that meaningfully touched on his own sexual identity. That's cos there's so much more to identity than race, nationality, sexual orientation.
I'm starting to rant. There's a million things I'd love to touch on. Wish I could actually just sit in a roundtable discussion with you all as if this were a real physical cafe.
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses from everyone.
I suppose instead of asking for a list of "gay" characters, I would just like to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject of non conventionally straight characters in fighting games. Are there any characters that stuck out to you for any reason? From my own experience, I've met such a diverse range of people playing fighting games, and I honestly think part of that is cos of the diversity inherent in the format.
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 22 Apr 17:21] |
| Loona 853th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
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Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(9):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Wed 22 Apr 17:28
quote:
I suppose instead of asking for a list of "gay" characters, I would just like to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject of non conventionally straight characters in fighting games. Are there any characters that stuck out to you for any reason? From my own experience, I've met such a diverse range of people playing fighting games, and I honestly think part of that is cos of the diversity inherent in the format.
I can't help but think of Poison and her progress through her depictions over several games, from street thug to entertainment entrepreneur.
It makes an interesting amount of sense for a character who's transsexual, and therefore in a way fighting the major powers that are biology, time and public perception, to take her somewhat callous approach to making money - transitioning isn't free, and the longer it takes to do it and pay for it, the less she gets to live a life fully aligned with her self-perception as a young woman.
And she managed to stick out in people's minds despite the fact that Roxy appears before her in Final Fight - that probably amazes me more than anything else.
...!!
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"Re(1):LGBT Fighting Game Characters" , posted Sun 19 Apr 06:22
If anything, it might be a meta about Zangi disliking people more popular than him, or at something happening between Russia and Spain during those years.
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