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| Toxico 5956th Post
  
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|  "Re(6):Fighting Game Thread 9: recycled assets" , posted Sat 16 May 20:25:  
quote:
Tekken 7 acceptance?
Monetarely, it's being a pretty big success; but "profesional opinion" is totally split. New caracters are too much of a hit or a miss (I'm already entangled in Gigas' tentacles); and mechanics changes are meant to make game entry to new players easy (this game apparently has the worst side-step in the whole saga, which basically murders like the flow of the game and like >60% of the strategies at high level (and it's barely noticable at mid level)).
Well, we won't play this game (since as per tradition the upgrade will be the one to hit oconsoles in only 3 more years or so.
quote:
Otherwise my comment would have focused on slightly less serious discussion of whether or not Jack actually has a soul. Although, I realize that everyone is talking about Mad Max lately but did you happen to see Ex Machina?
P-Jack : Merely a souless gray Arnold. Was later reconned as "sentinent" (with a heart) by Harada for TTT2 (I can bet that he made a mistake due to bad memory, heh). Built in characteristic : rotating extremeties and torso.
Jack-1 : Just an auto controlled tin can. Built in characteristic : None. Maybe movie cosplay?
Jack-2 : Emo Sentinent type. Can violate orders, kidnap little gils and smoke pot to become one with nature. Built in characteristic : first with intellect and strategic abilities.
G-Jack : Sentinent, brain wise he is just Jack-2 cosplaying. Built in characteristic : Guns that don't work (this is actually the canon). They can shoot in TTT1, but that game is a non existent what if.
Jack-4 : Supposedly it exists in the story, but since he didn't appear in any game, we know little about it.... Built in characteristic : apparently none?
Jack-5 : Just a machine following a program. The background was about the inventor trying to revive Gun Jack's "heart", but she has been unsuccessful (so, 4 was problably just a microwave). Built in characteristic : none.
Jack-6 : Sentinent, apparently it's Jack 2 as well, but due to damaged data his mind starts from zero. Scenario campaign -which is where character personality is explored- depicts him as a well intentioned baby (I'm not kidding, 0 years old). Built in characteristic : I think the manual / website story (not the in-game one) mentioned something about his guns being stronger (this is a reference to his new ability to charge moves in-game).
Jack-7 : Probably discovered disco with all of that fluorescence.
.... As you can see, my training to be a good housewife includes knowing everything about the house appliances that I use
edit : Through the Tekken series, the staff has been very lax with the use of Voice Actors, usually changing people just because or having a single character being voiced by several people at the same time (victory pose, CG movie dialogs and battle voice all being different people in a single game, for example; sometimes even CG movies aren't congruent in a single VA (lili)).... Jack is basially the only char who has always being voiced by the same guy, which is Banjou Ginga (semblance is basically non existent since his voice is edited for the games, for example try listening to Daniel D'arby, Souther or Ghiren Zabi).
さっきの感じならあと100発はもつ‥‥と思うぜ
Update 24 as of 03/04/12. // 104 personajes traducidos
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Last update : Chapter 25 as of 31/08/12
[this message was edited by Toxico on Sun 17 May 09:40] |
| Toxico 5957th Post
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| "Re(8):Fighting Game Thread 9: recycled assets" , posted Mon 18 May 09:33:
quote:
Is it? That's good to know. I wondered because it wasn't highlighted in their financial results. In fact, between the crazy sales of Yo-Kai Watch toys and the four best selling console games being licensed IPs from the Bandai side, you might have thought the Namco side of Bandai-Namco was on a Don Draper-like vanishing holiday the entire year.
The thing with Tekken is that it has a level of acceptance where "it's enough for it to smell new", and with that the arcades can make up the initial investment (cabinets and live monitors are not cheap and a combo of them is a must for events); the fanbase in asia is steady enough that players that absolutly hate and despise the current game are still gonna play many many many quarters a day (the habit in tekken is for a non formal set between two players to last over 10~15~ish matches; famous faces play like 20 of those sets a day due to matches being fairly short compared to other games). This is something that has been common to the tekken franchise for many games and is part of that steady success in the asian arcade scene.
Tekken it's not a franchise where Harada says "oh, I want to make a game, let's ask the higher ups", but rather the higher ups saying "it's about time Harada-kun does something, and has X months to do so" (this has never stated, but it can be deduced and read in-between lines with Harada's complains about time and costs and market expectations and what he complains about his bosses). Since the game is the wish of the company rather than it's producer, we can tell that it's a name that safely delivers a proper X amount of money when they need it.
Monetarely the problem with Tekken is that they can't translate that steady success to consoles; tekken 6 became a great seller only when the initial shipment completely failed to sell and became 1/4 the price (I paid full price btw, knowing nothing of market prospects at that time, buying the console more or less the day the game came out) and TTT2 hit 2 millions not within the first year (their inital market expectative) and mainly because it became a free psn+ game---- and it has been "funny" how Harada has desperatedly tried to address that home market weakness by doing commercial stunts and failed horribly each and evey time.
(As a trivia, I'll tell you that the current capcom seems to be (was?) the opposite fighting game wise; it's very successful but kind of unsteady in the asian arcade market, and it's much more reliable worldwide in the console market; so probably the concept for tekken x sf was just Harada and Ono talking about their problems with each other and realizing that they were weak at different things; and decided to "combine their strengths", but that ended up in a "series" that no one really wanted and just became a failure as it should).
Before Lé Hagué uses Hokuto Shinken on this beautiful road ganger, I'll mention my sources : keeping an eye on players comments on how their scenes wane (unreliable), large scale tournaments number on entrants and place of residence of those entrants aka "how far are they willing to travel and pay to compete" (reliable(?)), am-net (reliable), officials announcements on their yearly sales targets (actually, unreliable; heh). Oh, and Souther has my sister, so forgive me, ok?
quote:
Jack's beauty scores across the years
Wrote a lot due to my drunken mood, added trivia on view of the games at the time (trying to include including what we as a players couldn't grasp at the time).
First the conclusion : Jack is usually ok, tending to be "strong" in each tekken game, and in some countries he is widely used (basically every arcade in Japan has a strong Jack, and there is regularly somthing like 3 big name players in japan that constantly fight it out (with varying results) for the spot of "top Jack in the country" title, and there are plenty of players that are "close" to them and make for interesting video views).
Now, my rabid drunken details : Tekken design is really weird. Basically the team talks as if they design the game taking into account a "balance" between 'speed and strength' but that's actually pretty much false (many characters which are "balanced" in speed and strength can pretty much pull of the most damaging moves in the game (think Bryan, Bruce or Kazuya), while characters that are "slow but strong" have weaker moves); basically tekken is played with the assumption that everyone has speed (to some extent), everyone has strength (related to the risk/reward table of each character) and that range is ultimately handled different for everyone in the game, this is taking into account ability to fight in a 2d plane (approach / retrat speed ; inherent range of moves ; and ability to fight in a 3d plane.... Some characters are considered "not that strong" due to being weak to side steps despise being amazing in paper (like Lili)).
If a Jack is strong or weak in a game, it depends on how namco handled his ability to cope with the battle of distance, and this related to his desing (notice how he was intially designed with a normal body structure, but later games have him with a more "gorillesque" body build, and a gorilla arm has much longer range compared to Arnold, this comment comes from a monkey).
Tekken 1 : Basically, absolute top tier material. various infinites combos, and unlike the other characters with infinites, these ininites are extremely varied and can start from many attacks. Has the strongest 50/50 mix ups in the game and his design concept is completely wrong (he is basically the fastest character in the cast, coupled with being the most damaging and having the longest reach). He has only "one weakness", which is that most characters can take advantage from a bug where you force the enemy to be unable to guard for a time; and Jack can't really take that to the extreme (Heihachi can 100% from that bug, Jack can land 20%ish damage); but in the end, most of his obscene advantages are enough to outclass any short comings.
Trivia : the commands for making many of his moves are different than any other Jack (I actually like notations here more, since it has less chance of conflicting inputs and is instinctive); so, basically, Jack 2 is the one who set in iron how Jack moves are to be performed, thus some players that come from futures tekkens won't know how to pull off some of his moves. This was noticeable in my local game sessions, after comparing Jack to the rest of the cast, the sessions became jack vs jack or jack vs p-jack; and the other guys couldn't execute all of his moves due to the detail I mentioned.
Tekken 2 : In this game he was properly balanced to be slow and his long strings don't auto connect every time unless you catch the enemy from the back (good luck with that with no side-step). He "feels strong" due to the way the game is designed : his bozy side is almost the same as other characters, the lack of ukemi and "gravitational effects" in the game allow him to have some pretty strong combos, so when you are playing him, "he just feels strong".
Some definitions :
- Tekken 2 basically never had and never will have a true competitive scene, so there is no reliable tier list, so one can say "he is top / low tier material".
- "gravitational effect", I mean, if you put SF2 ryu in tekken 2, and do a launcher and close standing fierce kick, the 2 attacks will hit with nothing weird happening, and a combo of something like launcher -> cls fiere kick, crouching kick is possible. In tekken 3 the team tried to add more realism, and attacks that "look" like they can slam the enemy into the ground, will (which will forcefully end the combo); between that feature ending juggles and ukemi allowing quick recovery from the ground, also ending juggles earlier; that really hit Jack hard. Most of the other characters can compensate that in some way or another with their new tools, but Jack can't. (So, in tekken 3 Ryu's juggle would be launcher > close standing fierce kick and that's that; meaning you need to drop the fierce kick to do something amazing (which Ryu could probably do, but Jack couldn't).
Tekken 3 : The way "damage" is handled in the game (everything kills and quickly), makes him feel strong; his body size is much larger than in Tekken 2, but you can hardly feel any advantage or disadvantage from that due to how the game is designed. One of the main reasons of why he feels good here is because the game competivie scene is still baically non existent and because characters that will later be "eternal top tier material" are actually "just normal" here (like Jin or Bryan).
Tekken 3 battle flow is basically, every character has a 'big assort' of strong moves, and you need to use that to win at any cost. Since battle dagamge is incredibly high, you can basically win a round with nothing but suposedly low damage short / quick kicks (this is tied to how "everything feels useful").
TTT1 : (introduction) Thanks to korea popularizing international events (by dominating them), this is the first game that truly has a competitive scene, so the concept of tier becomes more prevalent and better studied and somehow translates more into the game; but what's more important is how far players take movement in the game. Is in this game is where one of tekken's main characteristic features becomes evident : there is no upper ceiling to hand speed.
A game characteristic is that namco also tried to better balance the game, and how? most moves are nerfed compared to Tekken 3, this ends up that the basic game flow of "being skilled" in TTT1 is like this :
- Grab a character (if possible, a strong one; which means one out of 8~10 chars or a body swap of one of those 8).
- Identify what moves are actually strong and useful (that's usually a repertory consistign of 3~7 moves, including throws/variations).
- Fight all day using only the moves you identified coupled with using "movement" as fast and accurately as you can.
At high level "movement" can become incredibly important; because it can open the path to "evasion" (which can void the usefulness of many moves), and makes it so that you can always be in range to use "that one move" you want to use all the time (further discouraging learning to use many moves). Also, since the faster you move your hand the faster the character moves, you feel good, and it can also be taken to a level where other players won't be able to imitate how you play, these are factors that keep people playing and coming back to the saga, and knowing Harada, I'm 100% sure that this feature "to show skill" was just accidentally put there and not something that the team truly intended for players to take as far as they did. (example
How does this influence Jack? His movement ability his basically among the worst in the game, meaning that players that do the "pursue skill" ting via movement won't touch him; he also has the biggest body size in his tekken history (biger than what his graphic shows); this translates into enemies being able to use moves that are meant to be used half a step away from the enemy at a distance of something like 3 or 4 steps, completely nullifying his range advatange he is supossedly characterized for (unless it's ack vs jack ¬¬) and naturally making him weak to virtually "all match ups that you can be weak at" in the game. He is broadly recognized as a low tier (he also keep his ability of "complete lack of ability to juggle"). Having a big body size has many other weakness rather than merely increasing the opponent's range, but I won't get into that since I don't want to increase this segment by another 20 lines.
Jack's do have, however; a "charisma", basically he has some pretty solid moves, gun-jack and jack-2 are among the strongest low tier characters in the game, so they have this "usable" charisma; they also have charisma at a design level (Gun Jack's votoms punch made me re-marry him after several years of divorce (did he learnt that because he wanted to win me over again? It would be a moving story if that's the case)).
trivia : since jack is "weak" but still somewhat usable, he is one of chars that people use to argue that the game is perfectly balanced (when it isn't).
Playing Jack/Jack was popular, but also incredibly bad since it basically makes you too vulnerable to match ups. Playing with Jack/something was many times stronger in paper and more fun in reality, but a lot of people never realized that.
Being bigger is such a huge deal that even though Gun Jack is in theory stronger than in tekken 3 in paper, he is performance wise, less than half as effective.
Tekken 4 : Doesn't exit
trivia the tekken force in the force mode are a mish mash of moves from every character. When playing that mode, there are some moves that one can't make out where they come from; when playing tekken 5 it will become obvious that those moves are from Jack, specifically new moves that he didn't had in Tag 1, but he probably had in a concept stae in tekken 4.
Tekken 5 : The first among the new Jacks with a smaller body frame and long reaching arms. Since he basically incorporated moves from every previous Jack along with is improved body size, that made him feel like an ideal dream come true when the game came out.
A change in the way his moves work made him regain one of his tekken 2 juggles, while a tekken 2 level juggle is weak by "today's standards", we can no longer argue that "he doesn't have a juggle".
He is basically considered middle tier ~ upper mid, due to top tiers being awfully strong.
Tekken 5DR : (introduction) a bunch of stupid features about 5.0 were taken out, and top tiers being nerfed (or rather, being top tier in a different way), make him fresh and cool, but the game still keeps the characterstic of "using 8~ moves over and over while using "movement" as much as you can", which is fundamentally incompatible with Jack (but that also makes him feel unique). I think japan ranked him among the top5 chars or something, since he was a good match up to most of the other tops.
Tekken 6 : Harada tried to do 2 main things with tekken, one is taking away the disparity of "doesn' have a juggle" that a good chunk of characters were the victim of, and to get rid of that mentality of "using 6 moves for 7 years straight". He did so by royaly boosting characters movesets and by "balancing" characters to "everyone can juggle", so juggling is finally within the concept of game balance, furthermore the concept of "walls" was remaped for this game into making sense (in 4 and 5 having an enemy cornered brought like 1 good thing and like 7 demerits to most of the cast). To increase the variety, the concept of "speed" was also redone, previously the "fastest speed" was 8 frames, now it's 10; it doesn't sound like a lot, but it means a lot if you are usig slow moves (now harder to interrupt and harder to punish).
.... So, with all of those designs improvements, what can go wrong?... Eh.
First, with the increased variety, defending against a character is much more difficult; for example in Tag 1 or dr I could easily get 30~ win streaks merely by fending off and mind reading 30 moves a day (aka, 7 moves split on several people); in >6 to win consistently you tecnically need to deal with 30 moves in a match, this; coupled with everyone in the game having the ability to juggle makes it so that players need to learn more to reduce the skill of others (a concept intrinsic to "getting consistent wins"), which brought a huge tear rivers on how anyone can win now, that high level skill means zinch now and how 5dr was the true tekken and etc. In tekken 5dr characters that are good at juggling can take 95% life after the ring bell and characters that are ok at juggling can take 75%~ish damage while over half of the cast was basically stuck in their tekken 2 juggles and 30%ish damage. In 6.0 now everyone can juggle, so I'll leave that to your imagination.
And how does that piece into Jack : with all of his improvements and added variety; the game further favoring "slow but dangerous moves", he makes the previous "dream come true" Jack-5 look as if he was a black and white no sound tv. Also has better hand range and less body size than Jack 5 (who had the best hand range of any other Jack until then) and he can finally juggle.
Due to system changes, Jack-6 has an abnormally strong juggle by the game's standards, so not counting some of his designs incompatibilities with movement, he was overall considered one of the best characters in bob city.
Tekken 6BR (the one ported to consoles) : Juggle scalling was finally adjusted after over 10 years (been the same since tekken 2); so juggle damage is overall lesser (hard to get to 60% no matter who you use), corner game was re-adjusted again, so Jack's abnormally strong corner combo is gone, he has a "just right" corner combo.
Jack suffered several nerfs on several moves, but he still feels strong and since everyone gains a couple of moves every game, he still feels varied and solid
TTT2 : the long return of a awaited saga, With the new addition of a new feature that adds new layer of deep to the combo system, what could go wrong?... Heh.
The new feature, the tag assault allows dithis fferent combos depending on who is paired with who; allowed some out of control combo potential, basically the strongest in juggle damage tekken ever since tekken 1 (which had plenty of 100%), "how do these 2 characters pair up" becomes pretty important and can easily overturn tier difference in the worst was possible. Hwoarang is basically the best pair for everyone, since he can juggle is unblockable with the help of tag assaults, unblockables do like 80% life worth damage when non scaled.
What's with the washing machine? There is only one Jack in this game, which was a major complain for many players that like the concept of pairing up similar characters (jack/jack, julia/michelle, yoshi/kuni, baek/hwoarang in TTT1, for example). Jack still has some more nerfs, but again with added extra moves he feels more varied and good to play.
TTT2 Unlimited : Basically the most copipaste upgrade in tekken ever. No added stages, no added characters and no added moves, they just tweaked tag assault to make it weaker and added solo mode ; however even with tag assault being weaker, it's still totally and utterly destructive.
How does this concern Jakku? Since it's the same game, comments about Jack are the same. The game basically has no rebalace other than trying to weaken Lars and trying to buff True Ogre (who are basically still the strongest and weakest chars in the game respectively (seats shared with other people, though)).
TTT2 console : Added P.Jack so you now can play a Jack duo. TTT2 new added characters follow a very basic concept, probably meant by Harada to keep "balance" even: Clones must be weaker than their originals; so basically even though there is a solo mode, they still want to keep a "disadvantage" for playing a single character rather than two. Thanks to that "basic concept" many of the clones are basically unsuable (ever seen Michelle or Forrest in a tournament? heh); but Prototype really luckied it out in this one, he is just "slightly weaker than Jack", so they are viable as a team.
Proto has a single characteristic which is very odd. He is slightly smaller than Jack 6; but not small eough to evade "vs big characters" combos; that translates into him having less range than Jack with basically no good side. Having less range also means that he can do less combos, and he is missing a few very important moves that Jack-6 has, so he is soudly weaker than him to anyone who sees the facts. Since he is shorter his moves hit closer to the ground than Jack-6, but game design makes it impossible for P-Jack to translate this into useful things asides a couple of combos that you probably won't use.
Tekken Revolution : Jack has gone through a cicle of tekken 6.0 : ubber strong , tekken 6 br : weaker than in the previous game. Tag2 : weaker than the previous game, tag2U ; (perhaps) weaker than in the previous game (due to team compatibility). Revolution finally breaks the slope like development and buffs Jack in several ways, many other characters have plenty of buffs, so that's a common concept in the game.... Sadly, the game is just not meant to be played seriously, so that's that.
Tekken 7 : This year car model has not been released yet, but it should be noticed that the game is build with Revolution as the basis, not Tag2; and the trailer already showed some of his Revolution buffs being included.
Overall ranks :
Tekken 1 : Prototype > Jack 1
Tekken 2 : Jack 2 > Prototype
Tekken 3 : A single Jack
TTT 1 : Debatable. Gun jack has a "large" (for the game) variety of useful moves, but Jack 2's "you can use all day and be ok" moves are, perhaps; stronger than Gun Jack's ones; so it becomes an issue of variety vs functionality which is funny since they are basically the same character. P-jack strength level is enough that he would lose a slugfest vs Dan Hibiki so let's not comment on him.
Tekken 4 : Ask the tekken force and their Jack moves.
Tekken 5 : A single Jack
Tekken 6 : Jack is single forever.
TTT2 (c) : Jack-6 > P-Jack
- So, all in all, tekken history is incredibly interesting to look at (specially with all the nice things the staff think for their .0 versions and need to patch in their .5 ones), unfortunately the game model of "making guys cooler the more they play / train" makes it so that many people only play tekken, thus they are the worst source for an objective view of the saga with who knowns what silly thing they blurt.
I could probalby do this depth on analisys on Lee as well, but I won't.
Oh, and basically, I like using the word basically. Funny since I don't use any equivalent on Spanish. I do だいたい a lot when nihongo-ing, though.
I tend to open parenthesis, but I don't close them. That's my gap moe.
さっきの感じならあと100発はもつ‥‥と思うぜ
Update 24 as of 03/04/12. // 104 personajes traducidos
Now sponsoring : video game analogies (ES)
Last update : Chapter 25 as of 31/08/12
[this message was edited by Toxico on Mon 18 May 09:51] |
| Baines 425th Post
Gold Customer
|  "Re(9):Fighting Game Thread 9: recycled assets" , posted Mon 18 May 11:35
quote:
so probably the concept for tekken x sf was just Harada and Ono talking about their problems with each other and realizing that they were weak at different things; and decided to "combine their strengths", but that ended up in a "series" that no one really wanted and just became a failure as it should)
Street Fighter X Tekken was fairly pointless, because it wasn't really that hard to guess how Tekken characters would translate into a 2D Street Fighter. Making matters worse, the way Tekken designs translate into Street Fighter is "hand-to-hand brawler". One or two Tekken characters guest starring in a Street Fighter game would be fine, and could even be something special. Putting nearly 25 Tekken characters into a Street Fighter game is an overload of blandness, because while they are varied within the Tekken engine, their more realistic (lack of projectiles, teleports, inhuman builds, etc) designs blend together inside a Street Fighter engine.
Tekken X Street Fighter (Street Fighter characters in a Tekken engine) would have been interesting, simply to see how the Street Fighter characters would be translated. The result likely could have been awful for one or both fanbases, but at least it wouldn't be a known quantity until after it was released.
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| nobinobita 1407th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(9):Fighting Game Thread 9: recycled assets" , posted Mon 18 May 14:04
quote:
Is it? That's good to know. I wondered because it wasn't highlighted in their financial results. In fact, between the crazy sales of Yo-Kai Watch toys and the four best selling console games being licensed IPs from the Bandai side, you might have thought the Namco side of Bandai-Namco was on a Don Draper-like vanishing holiday the entire year.
The thing with Tekken is that it has a level of acceptance where "it's enough for it to smell new", and with that the arcades can make up the initial investment (cabinets and live monitors are not cheap and a combo of them is a must for events); the fanbase in asia is steady enough that players that absolutly hate and despise the current game are still gonna play many many many quarters a day (the habit in tekken is for a non formal set between two players to last over 10~15~ish matches; famous faces play like 20 of those sets a day due to matches being fairly short compared to other games). This is something that has been common to the tekken franchise for many games and is part of that steady success in the asian arcade scene.
Tekken it's not a franchise where Harada says "oh, I want to make a game, let's ask the higher ups", but rather the higher ups saying "it's about time Harada-kun does something, and has X months to do so" (this has never stated, but it can be deduced and read in-between lines with Harada's complains about time and costs and market expectations and what he complains about his bosses). Since
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Holy cow, thank you for this amazing treatise on the complexities of Tekken by way of Jack. Seriously, I've been playing Tekken casually (mindlessly) since the PSOne days and you've really opened my eyes to the differences in each instalment.
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| Just a Person 1650th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):Here comes a new challenger!" , posted Wed 20 May 04:37:
quote:
I think it's expected by the end of the fiscal year, so late winter? They are talking of a beta, so they might be well into development (though I don't expect more than 16 characters for the first version, and a handful of stages... didn't SF0 1 and SF4 AC only had 5 stages?).
Yes, 16 characters seems a good number for the first version. But SFIV revealed its characters faster than SFV, didn't it? If I remember correctly, first we only knew about Ryu, Ken and C.Viper - but not long after the game was announced, Capcom revealed Chun-Li, Guile, E.Honda, Blanka, Zangief and Dhalsim at the same time, and not long after that, Abel was shown.
As for the number of stages, SF Zero/Alpha did have few stages, but Arcade vanilla SFIV had 9 or 10 stages, if I remember correctly (not counting Volcanic Rim, Overpass, Training Stage and the alternate versions of some stages added in the console version).
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
[this message was edited by Just a Person on Wed 20 May 23:05] |
| Gojira 3104th Post
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| "Re(3):Here comes a new challenger!" , posted Wed 20 May 10:56
quote:
But SFIV revealed its characters faster than SFV, didn't it? If I remember correctly, first we only knew about Ryu, Ken and C.Viper - but not long after the game was announced, Capcom revealed Chun-Li, Guile, E.Honda, Blanka, Zangief and Dhalsim at the same time, and not long after that, Abel was shown.
The early initial version that the press (or was it only Famitsu?) got to play had all 8 of the original SF2 characters in it, and this was when the rest of the world found out about the game. They talked about getting to play these characters but were only allowed to show Ryu and Ken in screenshots IIRC.
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| neo0r0chiaku
34th Post
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Rare Customer
| "Re(10):Fighting Game Thread 9: recycled asset" , posted Fri 22 May 11:23
quote:
so probably the concept for tekken x sf was just Harada and Ono talking about their problems with each other and realizing that they were weak at different things; and decided to "combine their strengths", but that ended up in a "series" that no one really wanted and just became a failure as it should)
Street Fighter X Tekken was fairly pointless, because it wasn't really that hard to guess how Tekken characters would translate into a 2D Street Fighter. Making matters worse, the way Tekken designs translate into Street Fighter is "hand-to-hand brawler". One or two Tekken characters guest starring in a Street Fighter game would be fine, and could even be something special. Putting nearly 25 Tekken characters into a Street Fighter game is an overload of blandness, because while they are varied within the Tekken engine, their more realistic (lack of projectiles, teleports, inhuman builds, etc) designs blend together inside a Street Fighter engine.
Tekken X Street Fighter (Street Fighter characters in a Tekken engine) would have been interesting, simply to see how the Street Fighter characters would be translated. The result likely could have been awful for one or both fanbases, but at least it wouldn't be a known quantity until after it was released.
I think the fighting engine of Soul Calibur would be a good fit if SNK and Namco collaborated to create a Soul Calibur vs Samurai Shodown(or Last Blade)game. Namco would create the 3-D version and SNK would make the 2-D/2.5-D version.
Long Live!
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| neo0r0chiaku
35th Post
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Wii: n/a
Rare Customer
| "Re(6):Re(10):Fighting Game Thread 9: recycled" , posted Sat 23 May 00:52
quote:
still waiting for Sammy vs Capcom
I wonder what the Official Cross-over Regulations are for those things and whether they would be allowed to use franchises such as Monster Hunter, Gyakuten Saiban, Sengoku Basara, Dead Rising, Lost Planet or Dragon's Dogma, which all debuted after the announcement of Sammy Vs. Capcom.
That game was announced around the same time as Capcom Fighting All-Stars, by the way... [edit] Wait my bad, CFAS was announced in 2002 (cancelled in 2003). Maybe the reason Ingrid's sprite exists in Fighting Jam is that they planned to salvage her from CFAS towards Sammy Vs. Capcom? Hmm I doubt so... Probably nothing ever existed.
So much speculations behind the scenes as to why this has not come to be and when it will come if it ever will. I think the main part that prevented or halted this project was the merger with Sega and Sammy. It was really Arc systems who wanted this project but since they had to use Sammy's name, for business purposes I presume, Sammy had full control and not Arc. Then Sega had control. With TvC coming out of nowhere, I do not think Cap v Sam will come out. Who knows?
SNK P and Treasure Inc. really need to do something soon or at least collaborate with another company for a crossover game to put themselves back in the Video Game spotlight. One of the best innovative companies in VG history, about to become extinct or forgotten :(
Long Live!
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| Just a Person 1650th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Killer Instinct's literal AI boss" , posted Tue 26 May 05:26
Iron Galaxy showed the first gameplay footage for Killer Instinct's final boss (at least for Season 2), ARIA (yup, all capital letters).
When she was first shown, I thought ARIA would be like a female Fulgore, but she's quite interesting, actually. She seems to be a kind of AI, capable of controlling different drones to fight - she's like a MKX character, but being able to switch variations during the match.
Maybe she's not the most interesting character of this game (what can be cooler than Aganos's huge size or Hisako's creepy intro?), and it's weird that she's being released as a playable character BEFORE she's added as a final boss, but at least I think her design is much more interesting than KI's previous bosses, Eyedol and Gargos (and definitely more interesting than Shadow Jago).
Overall, Iron Galaxy is doing a great job with KI. Now hopefully when her official trailer is released, it will tease something about Season 3 (hopefully Kim Wu and/or Tusk).
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Lord SNK
65th Post
Occasional Customer
| "Re(3):Wakamoto's return returns" , posted Fri 29 May 03:35
quote:
After SF5, it's time to come back to GGXrd as well.
And now we are sure that Xrd will sell 0 units in Europe.
I'm hoping that it'll be affordable DLC for Xrd owners, as opposed to a whole new standalone thing. I'm guessing that that won't be the case, though.
Japan and America had the game for like 6 months before this announcement, in Europe the game is not out yet, they announced this now, only for arcade but we know that it will comes also to consoles.
Impatient people already imported the game from USA, some of the other that waited for it got disappointed by the DD only option, and now this is the last straw.
Me for sure will not buy it anymore, I will wait for some big sale or for the next version to come out.
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| Grave 1505th Post
PSN: Drakee
XBL: eccothedolphin
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):Wakamoto's return returns" , posted Mon 1 Jun 13:47
quote:
Japan and America had the game for like 6 months before this announcement, in Europe the game is not out yet, they announced this now, only for arcade but we know that it will comes also to consoles.
Impatient people already imported the game from USA, some of the other that waited for it got disappointed by the DD only option, and now this is the last straw.
Me for sure will not buy it anymore, I will wait for some big sale or for the next version to come out.
Yeah, between Europe finally getting Xrd 2-3 days before the Revelator loketests begin, a DFC update being announced before the overseas versions even have release dates... a lot of this is making me question why I continue to support these games when the people who make and publish them don't seem to care for any of their fans outside of Japan.
Even the indie devs there put arcades ahead of the rest of the world. There was supposed to be a big update on Yatagarasu for May, including the PC release date... guess what hasn't happened because they're too busy planning an arcade tournament? Nice.
And of course, there's still Tekken 7 at Evo to wonder about. Its presence outside of Japan has consisted of, what, 2-3 boards traveling to major US tournaments?
It's business as usual, but that doesn't make it right or good. Time and disposable income are both in short supply for me. Why give it to people who only care about arcade operator business?
I hate not posting for months and then saying something depressing, but it's what I'm good at, dammit. Hi everybody.
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| Maou 2802th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| ""What's Yatagarasu? Can you eat it?"" , posted Sun 7 Jun 13:09:
quote:
I hate not posting for months and then saying something depressing, but it's what I'm good at, dammit. Hi everybody.
Ha, superb! Welcome back to the stage of history---and this reminds me, since you mention Yatagarasu: uh, what happened to that game? Former SNK artists, quite attractive character design (seemingly affected by the terrible spats/leggings-under-skirts disease, though happily not in all color combinations), and...no discussion whatsoever, from what I've seen? Their page kind of sucks, and that's a lot of talk of loketests and tournaments for a game that I honestly don't think has had much communicated about it to anyone. Or did I just miss the news? Is it good? quote:
Jack-O
Ahahaha, has Jack(ie)-O seriously been considered rock and roll enough to become a Guilty Gear character? And is that a futuristic halo above her head?! I like to think that for a special move, she can summon up JFK and they can dance a ghostly, stylish ballad. I know the article points to the Jack o' Lantern mask, but...I just don't care!
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sun 7 Jun 14:06] |
| Professor 4294th Post
MMCafe Owner
     
| "Re(2):Embargo, disembargoed" , posted Fri 12 Jun 02:14:
So here's a roundup of the 4gamer article-
- There's a new "V-Meter" in the game.
- Each character has a special motion called "V-skill" which can be done with just two buttons (the medium attacks). If it succeeds/hits/gets blocked, you build up the V-meter. For example Ryu has a Parry a la SF3 but with whiff motion. If he succeds in parrying an opponent's attack, he'll build meter. Chunli has a hyper hop that hits, Nash has a projectile absorber, and Dictator has a counter move (he shoots a psycho power projectile when he catches the opponent's attack).
- V-meter can be can be used for 2 purposes: guard canceling (needs 1 block of meter), or for going into a special mode called "V-Trigger" (needs full meter).
- When you have full V-meter, you can go into the V-Trigger mode by pressing both fierce buttons together. It's unique to each character, like Ryu gets electricity on all the moves he does with his hands, Chunli gets multipule hits on her moves except for weak attacks, Nash can teleport dash in 3 directions, and Dictator's specials get powered up.
Other tidbits:
- Normal moves do "recoverable" chip damage! Being in the defense is not exactly safe any more. Special moves do unrecoverable chip damage like any other fighting game. However you can't get KO'ed from chip damage.
- Backdash has no invincibility.
- Unlike SF4, If you try to escape from a throw while squatting and you miss, you'll do a throw whiff animation just like if you were standing.
[this message was edited by Professor on Fri 12 Jun 02:26] |
| Just a Person 1652th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "(Confused) Thoughts about KI Season 2's Story" , posted Fri 19 Jun 23:47:
Yesterday, Iron Galaxy released the Story Mode for Killer Instinct's Season 2. And... I'm not sure if it's good or bad.
Unlike the Season 1 Story Mode, which only consisted of a really short CG animation followed by a prologue text, some Arcade Mode-like fights and multiple endings for each character, Season 2 has an animated prologue with narration, small texts and images before each fight detailing why the character is fighting that opponent, then a boss (which varies for each character - yup, ARIA may be the head of Ultratech, but she's not really everyone's final boss) and a single ending for each character.
Curiously, this new presentation of the Story Mode is only available for the Season 2 characters; the ones from Season 1 remain with the same Story Mode presentation (which may be a nice way to show respect for the work Double Helix put in it back then, but also makes this mode lacks a cohesion. Also, apparently Omen isn't available in this mode.
Something weird, though, is that it's hard to say whether this game is rebooting the entire franchise or just aspects from it. Season 1 made references to the previous games, like Jago and Orchid already knowing they are siblings, Sabrewulf getting enhancements from Ultratech and the world believing that Ultratech had been destroyed; yet Season 2 has Ultratech going on normally, it seems that Gargos never invaded the world so far, and some characters got their stories completely changed (Cinder is ARIA's lapdog, Maya isn't from 2000 years in the past, and so on).
Overall, the Story Mode and the general plot of this game feels kinda messy - but I also find it quite interesting despite of that, even though I can't explain why.
Oh well, sorry for this long and meaningless text, y'all.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
[this message was edited by Just a Person on Sat 20 Jun 05:27] |
| neo0r0chiaku
49th Post
PSN: n/a
XBL: IAMDC1
Wii: n/a
Rare Customer
| "Re(7):(Confused) Thoughts about KI Season 2's" , posted Tue 23 Jun 21:14
quote:
Meanwhile in the world of Smash...
https://twitter.com/Reboot_0S/status/610399420153114624/
https://twitter.com/rinngo9119/status/611584368549584896/
Wow, what happened in the second screenshot? Did Ryu's head got shrinked or the rest of his body got inflated?
His inclusion in the latest Smash Bros is just awesome, anyway! Chun-Li would probably fit nicely in this game, as well...
I suspect before Capcom would manage to get a 3rd chatacter in there (I doubt SF would get a 2nd shot at it though), Bandai-Namco and Sega might want to sneak in a 2nd each - Namco could probably have a real Heihachi or Valkyrie, but as for Sega I'm not that sure - Alex Kidd would fit the tone, but not popular enough, so maybe someone like Gillius Thunderhead or Ryo Hazuki?
I think Tails and/or Knuckles would probably make it in there for SEGA before any other characters from SEGA. Maybe AiAi from Monkey Ball series? Joe Musashi, SAmba de Amigo, or Beat from JSR maybe as well. I think they will keep it obscured! lol.
Long Live!
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| Spoon 2971th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):EVO" , posted Mon 20 Jul 16:43
Ogawa has been a GG legend for forever, literally since GGXX, and his dominance is pretty much a function of whether or not ArcSys decides to bring the nerf hammer down on Eddie. Since that has happened in brutal fashion all of once (GG Slash), I don't know when Ogawa will get knocked off. Zidane was a god-killer, taking out multiple top Japanese players like Kazunoko and FAB. Any foreign player taking out FAB is an achievement. If Ogawa is Eddie, FAB is Potemkin, and that has been the way of things for as long as I can remember. Ogawa is such a great player and Eddie is such an oppressive character that at times it seems like his wins are overwhelmingly dominant with no room for his opponent to act, and that sometimes makes his wins seem "easy". Woshige vs. Nakamura highlights what happens when rushdown characters who themselves have poor tools against their own playstyle have to fight: it's as awesome as it is at times dumb. Faust getting crushed by Eddie is a feeling that I wish wasn't so familiar throughout the history of GG.
UMvC3 took a huge gamble with Yipes' co-caster. She's taken a lot of flak in the past when she first started because she really didn't know the game well, but she's clearly learned a lot since then. I don't think Yipes can ever be replaced as the voice of Mahvel hype, though. KBR winning with Team Big Body, MODOK making top 8, Firebrand being 3rd place.... whether or not the game has been figured out, it's still the game that brings the biggest BS and amazing hype.
Smash continues to be in the category of games that I don't mind playing and that I can respect the competitive quality of, but that I sure don't enjoy watching. I actually think that Smash is curiously like Tekken in that both games have a huge emphasis on hand speed in dash movement, but that is an observation that comes from a position of general ignorance in both games. I wonder if there's anybody here who could speak to that thought?
USF4 finals were terrific, Infiltration is a true giant of the game, pulling out pocket characters that he can play at a level worthy of the grandest stage. Rolento in all his instability, his awkward normals coupled with his blistering offence, were admirably demonstrated by his best player, Nemo. Ai Ai was a revelation. Momochi is the tower of incredibly solid play coupled with an incredibly solid character that Fuudo was when Fuudo won it all, and that together with Momochi's willingness to teach all kinds of technique to people on youtube. And what a run by Gamerbee! He was definitely a dark horse contender in this top 8, and I would not have pegged him to beat Infiltration (in what was surely one of the most nerve-wracking and brilliant matches of the whole tournament... that Healing disrespect, and the ensuing counter to it!). An unofficial people's champ gets crowned every Evo, and Gamerbee was it this year.
Tekken boss Harada consoling the runner-up in Tekken, AO, who literally hid his tears under his ballcap, was something out of a shonen manga.
The P4AU champ was also pretty much "I'm so excited. I'm not crying. Nope not crying. Oh, I'm crying." ArcSys games just brings that out in its champions.
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| Mosquiton 2058th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):EVO" , posted Mon 20 Jul 17:51
quote:
UMvC3 took a huge gamble with Yipes' co-caster. She's taken a lot of flak in the past when she first started because she really didn't know the game well, but she's clearly learned a lot since then. I don't think Yipes can ever be replaced as the voice of Mahvel hype, though. KBR winning with Team Big Body, MODOK making top 8, Firebrand being 3rd place....
Spoon! Great summary of some great stuff. I may have to back and watch some Guilty Gear, I was actually working both days during the bug matches.
As for MvC, I love rooting for underdog character so the finals got me pretty hyped! Frutsy pulled off some really cool stuff with MODOK... I was kind of hoping he'd battle all the way to grand finals but he had some great matches. KBR totally deserved that win, and what a great last round finish with the team super.
I actually like Persia on commentary, she's personable and knows her stuff. As a casual Marvel player at best I don't need mile-deep references and insight every second. And I agree, Yipes is irreplacable and always finds new ways and new vocab to modulate the hype frequency and avoid monotony.
I hugely enjoyed Evo this year, it was as good as any other year I remember. Amd going back a couple of days, did you guys see Bonchan catch this giant attack?
/ / /
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| Loona 893th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(3):EVO" , posted Mon 20 Jul 19:28
quote:
And holy crap, how about that new SFV fighter Necalli who looks like a Pillar Man made sweet love to the daughter of Vice and Wolverine?
I know I recently compared Birdie to Vice (the Negative Gain-like super), but this guy's take-you-to-the-wall command throw (?) and drag-you-across-the-floor super seriously reminds me of Gorefest mechanically. I mean if Street Fighter brought back blood, that super would definitely be a fest of gore.
Plus he finishes the super with a two-handed cross slash that looks an awful lot like Vice/Mature's regular throw from KOF XIII.
I'm not just seeing what I want to see, right? Regardless I am definitely all over this character, hope he's in the beta!
In addition to the comparisons to Vice/Mature and Iori I've seen, his special mode turns his hair red, which is a bit of a classic Leona feature.
I've only seen EVO results through Twitter, outside the KoF side tournament, but it's interesting that someone mentioned Haggar is the character most often present in victorious MvC3 - yet he's still to be added to a SF game.
I guess the Mayor is on a whole other level, but I hope removing his pipe or something will be enough to make him SF-viable - I'm still not sold on SFV, but Haggar could persuade me.
...!!
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| Iggy 9950th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):EVO" , posted Tue 21 Jul 05:27
quote:
Smash continues to be in the category of games that I don't mind playing and that I can respect the competitive quality of, but that I sure don't enjoy watching.
Smash was a real problem for me. I don't care for the way it's played competitively, but I managed to enjoy KI and MKX, two games I have never played and have little interest for, so I'm not hamstrung against any non-Capcom-or-SNK-games.
Unfortunately, having Smash in the middle of Sunday basically made me miss Mahvel, because I felt asleep after 2 matches. These people saying "Melee is faster" forgot to mention all these games were nothing happens because the players are too busy wave-dashing or whatever without actually getting closer until the time-out.
On top of that, the low res and terrible image quality of a GC game on CRT made the stream barely watchable on my end. I had to guess whether the clear brown mass of pixels was Fox, and the blue one was Marth.
If Smash is here to stay, at least please replace it with Smash4 on grand finals so I can at least give a chance to the game.
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| Baines 439th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):EVO" , posted Tue 21 Jul 09:13
quote:
Unfortunately, having Smash in the middle of Sunday basically made me miss Mahvel, because I felt asleep after 2 matches. These people saying "Melee is faster" forgot to mention all these games were nothing happens because the players are too busy wave-dashing or whatever without actually getting closer until the time-out.
On top of that, the low res and terrible image quality of a GC game on CRT made the stream barely watchable on my end. I had to guess whether the clear brown mass of pixels was Fox, and the blue one was Marth.
I like watching some Smash. Problem is, the characters that I like to watch aren't going make more than a token appearance at finals. That's true for Melee, and it looks like it is becoming true for Smash 4 as well.
As for the stream quality... As a free viewer, stream quality seemed kind of bad in general, while Melee's stream quality was downright awful. It felt like they didn't even try to get a decent broadcast going for that title. For a while, I suspected that they'd actually intentionally sank Melee's stream quality, either to save bandwidth or to push the paid HQ streams. But then I noticed the sidebar wasn't so badly affected...
I read some complaining that the paid "HQ" streams weren't exactly the quality that they had desired, either.
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| nobinobita 1445th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(5):EVO" , posted Tue 21 Jul 10:12
quote:
Smash continues to be in the category of games that I don't mind playing and that I can respect the competitive quality of, but that I sure don't enjoy watching.
Smash was a real problem for me. I don't care for the way it's played competitively, but I managed to enjoy KI and MKX, two games I have never played and have little interest for, so I'm not hamstrung against any non-Capcom-or-SNK-games.
Unfortunately, having Smash in the middle of Sunday basically made me miss Mahvel, because I felt asleep after 2 matches. These people saying "Melee is faster" forgot to mention all these games were nothing happens because the players are too busy wave-dashing or whatever without actually getting closer until the time-out.
On top of that, the low res and terrible image quality of a GC game on CRT made the stream barely watchable on my end. I had to guess whether the clear brown mass of pixels was Fox, and the blue one was Marth.
If Smash is here to stay, at least please replace it with Smash4 on grand finals so I can at least give a chance to the game.
I roomed with some die hard competitive Smash players in college. They used to hang out in public areas of the dorm, scouting new competition. Art School was overflowing with kids who were the best Smash players in their home towns. My roommates lived to suck the joy out of the game for these people. I once saw this exchange in my living room:
New Guy: The way you play... this isn't fun!
Roommates: This ISNT about FUN kid! This is about winning!
<no more speaking from here on out, only the cold ceaseless clicking of gamecube buttons. The phosphorous glow of the TV falls on stone faces>
Incidentally that's about the best summary of American culture I can think of.
www.art-eater.com
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| Spoon 2994th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):The famous ninjas of Spain" , posted Tue 4 Aug 02:09
quote:
Surprise surprise, another returning character from Street Fighter II. What's vaguely interesting though is that he will be able to switch between claw/no claw styles on the fly.
I hope that they have some good ideas for how to balance Claw in this game, because he's been a problematic character pretty much forever. He had an awesome sense of speed and high-flying-ness in SF2, but between his walldives that some characters had poor/no counter to, his incredibly fast walk speed which led to tons of throws, his zippy jump and his long reaching but still fast normals, he was incredibly strong.
SF4's Vega has something good in that he actually has real combo options that don't require a full super gauge that aren't just "normal xx roll". But overall he's had this tendency to degenerate from "high-flying" to "irritating poke character". His strength in CvS2 has nothing to do with high flying and everything to do with extremely good poking normals. But Vega has basically been mediocre across the history of the entire SF4 franchise. Other characters have more fun playing a fencing game of poking (see: Adon, Rose, even Zangief), and other characters also have more fun playing a game that contains a large element of aerial threat (namely, the divekickers).
I feel like El Fuerte is a character in which they specifically tried to focus on claw's high-flying quality while almost completely removing his poking quality. El Fuerte's extremeness in this regard gives him a unique flavour, but one so unique that some feel like he's straight up out of place in this game. Even top Fuerte player Pepeday has remarked this about Fuerte:
"It’s something I often say to players who are having trouble with the Fuerte matchup. Fuerte’s a Street Fighter character, sure, but there’s a huge line separating his gameplan from everyone else’s. The biggest difference is that he can always force decisions on the opponent due to how many 50/50s he has built into a lot of his moves, so you have to have a solid, consistent plan to deal with his shenanigans. I think that’s the main reason people tend to hate him. (laughs)
You can almost think of him as being a minigame within Street Fighter IV. Once you realize, 'Oh, this is a different game,' I think you’ll be able to have more fun fighting him and figuring out the matchup."
Still, it's better than "hyou-bal" claw from ST.
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| Spoon 3016th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Pokkén" , posted Tue 18 Aug 02:37
quote:
Is it just me or does it seem like she has more frames of animation than other characters?
She's certainly got some nice movement on her sleeves, but I'd hesitate to say that she's got more keyframes than the others when we've only seen what? 3 moves worth of animations? And it's certainly the case that not all animations have equal quantities there even on the release cast.
quote:
I think it's amazing that cel shading has advanced to the point where it can achieve the state of Sakuga (作画) ie those moments in anime where the animation quality suddenly spikes (The Naruto games, whose visuals are done by the same team as Guilty Gear also have these spikes in animation quality).
It's actually the exact opposite: since none of the keyframes are interpolated at all, this game has deliberately gone backwards in that specific technical regard. The capacity to animate in this way is entirely independent of the cel-shading technology. The invention of keyframe interpolation of 3D models was helpful in how it had all kinds of utility for animation blending, arbitrary snapshotting, simulation, collision detection, etc. it certainly saved a lot of people a lot of time, though it also certainly had a particular look to it when it was abused.
It's quite possible for other shading styles to succeed in that style of animation (in my head, anyway), but it's definitely not the norm right now. I think the physically accurate rendering/shading styles will look far too noisy when animated this way, for example, while other flatter rendering/shading styles (e.g. Killer7) will fare much better.
quote:
It's no longer restrained by technology, but human ability and time. There's so much hand tweaking going on that the 3d tech is basically now being used for ink and paint following an underdrawing rather than as a cold tweening and rendering machine.
I take exception with this statement because CG animation has ALWAYS been constrained by human ability and time (and render time, and sim time, and...), and enormous amounts of hand-tweaking has always been done on all the knobs of the technology in every shot. Real simple example, I'm certain if you look at cheaper CG animation, you'll see enormous amounts of facial blendshape re-use on dialogue, while much better/higher budget productions feature much more dynamism in the face.
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| nobinobita 1458th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Pokkén" , posted Wed 19 Aug 18:49:
quote:
Is it just me or does it seem like she has more frames of animation than other characters?
She's certainly got some nice movement on her sleeves, but I'd hesitate to say that she's got more keyframes than the others when we've only seen what? 3 moves worth of animations? And it's certainly the case that not all animations have equal quantities there even on the release cast.
I think it's amazing that cel shading has advanced to the point where it can achieve the state of Sakuga (作画) ie those moments in anime where the animation quality suddenly spikes (The Naruto games, whose visuals are done by the same team as Guilty Gear also have these spikes in animation quality).
It's actually the exact opposite: since none of the keyframes are interpolated at all, this game has deliberately gone backwards in that specific technical regard. The capacity to animate in this way is entirely independent of the cel-shading technology. The invention of keyframe interpolation of 3D models was helpful in how it had all kinds of utility for animation blending, arbitrary snapshotting, simulation, collision detection, etc. it certainly saved a lot of people a lot of time, though it also certainly had a particular look to it when it was abused.
It's quite possible for other shading styles to succeed in that style of animation (in my head, anyway), but it's definitely not the norm right now. I think the physically accurate rendering/shading
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Heya Spoon, didn't mean to offend. I should have put more thought into how I worded things.
I was referring to advancements in Cel Shading not CG overall. I meant that I'm glad that realtime cel shading has reached a point where it basically looks as good as prerendered cel shading.
CG has of course, always been carefully hand crafted. Especially on something like a feature film, a lot of care goes into each and every frame. That kind of care is of course, inherent in hand drawn animation, which used to be the standard for fighting games. It's not always applied to 3d games, or cel shaded games in general. A lot of games just kind of slap cel shading on willy nilly (this is what i mean by "cold" cg) .
The folks behind the visuals in Guilty Gear and the Naruto games have gotten so good at it that sometimes there are noticeable spikes in the quality of animation on screen, and I don't just mean the movement (3d games have noticable spikes and drops in movement quality, just look at newer Tekken moves vs legacy animations), but the actual linework present.
For instance, take a look at this final boss battle from Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 (warning spoilers if you are several years behind on reading the comic):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUvhUEcHfHA
About 3 minutes in, the animation quality keeps escalating. It's not that the hardware is getting better allowing for more polygons or more sophisticated lighting, it's that they put even more care than usual into the animation, so much that it looks like it's DRAWN better. I'm almost certain that at points they started to adjust things down to the verts, cos the line quality is just so good. It's the equivalent of those parts when you're watching some show or movie where suddenly the animation quality becomes incredible (cos they put their best artists and more budget into that shot).
It tickles my brain to get this aesthetic experience in 3d. Seeing things like this has inspired me to look at 3d differently in my own work, where I've recently been trying out a technique with puppet style animation where I draw a very precise mesh over a clean linework texture and then start deforming it frame by frame, vert by vert thinking about it like a drawing rather than a series of rotations and translations (I do tween wherever I get away with it tho :D). I hope to show you the fruits of my labor soon!
side note: I promise you I don't hate 3d cg lol. There are lots of terrible 2d games. And lots of great 3d games and vice versa. I definitely hold a special place in my heart for the hand drawn ones, but I earnestly love a lot of 3d stuff too.
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 19 Aug 19:00] |
| Spoon 3020th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):President exodus makes his stamen publi" , posted Wed 26 Aug 05:35
quote:
The differences between vanilla Xrd and Revelator puts me in mind of how KoF XII flowed into XIII. That's not a compliment.
It's not QUITE as extreme as the change from 12 to 13, where they wholesale removed multiple core systems from the game (Critical Counter and Guard Attack! Gone!), completely reworked the game camera, added substantial new meter systems...
It's definitely more complicated than Xrd, but to me that more follows the pattern established in GGXX series, where each game added some new universal and character specific mechanics to the game. I'd say in terms of "let's take out an entire aspect of the core system", I'm not sure if it's even as dramatic as Blazblue going from CT to CS (overhaul of the guard break system and gauges associated with it, removal of DANGER! from bursting, addition of guard bonus, etc.).
I am somewhat not enthused by the inevitable increase of complexity that will go from the elegantly distilled Xrd was compared to GG in the past, which is probably a sentiment you have as well. But it's ArcSys, so I can't say I'm surprised.
quote:
The picture gracing the front of the Revelator web page is hilarious. Tossing around all those minion generators must be great shoulder exercises because it's certainly built up Jack-O's traps!
Her collarbones are enormous, and the musculature they suggest is amazing/hilarious!
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| Doshin
34th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(6):NOW THIS IS STREET FIGHTER" , posted Fri 28 Aug 12:23:
quote:
The IGN rewind video shows a sign in the background of the stage reading "Thanks [for something or other]". The sign has a character on it that looks a lot like Maki from CvS2. Does anyone know if this sign was on this stage since the beginning or if this is a new addition??
Like Prof. said, that sign was shown in earlier shots, and featured the other main cast of Final Fight as well. Strangely, nobody cares about Carlos anymore, and nobody pays attention to Dean or Lucia either. What happened to these guys? Hell, I could just want a sequel to Final Fight Revenge that actually plays like a real fighting game.
quote:
So if Siliconera is right, didn't they also mention Alex, Urien and Karin?
Could just be coincidence. Luckily, I didn't bet against R.Mika, and Ono's earlier tweets prior to today's reveal made him seem so excited for it so it was not really THAT much of a surprise (even if some people were thinking his favorite character was actually Ingrid).
I still have trouble believing all of Siliconera's list, because the way they showed the arrangement for the starting roster was 8 in a green rectangle, 4 in a red rectangle for new characters most likely, and 4 in a blue rectangle--these are, as for now, just Alpha characters. It might actually be that the blue slots are more of a mix between Alpha and 3 as if it was a container for those not coming from Street Fighter 4. Or maybe the green is actually for SF2 through SF4 (including 3), and that's where Urien and Alex may land. On the other hand, I believe ComboFiend himself said "it's not that simple" when these notions came up, so really, anything can happen. So, you guys can keep your excitement levels up. But for TGS' reveal, people are guessing either Karin or Ingrid. Whatever it will be, I have to say I'm pretty excited! ...I just need a PS4.
quote:
I am so upset. I suppose I have to make good on my pledge to eat my Ishmael's Jigen's hat
25% of the hat should be consumed, and you should take a picture of the results.
[this message was edited by Doshin on Fri 28 Aug 12:28] |
| Ishmael 5260th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "RainBOOOOOW!" , posted Fri 28 Aug 23:08
Now that I've thought about it, I've realized a lot of my antipathy for Mika comes from my not being a huge fan of her debut game. Since it looks like she's going to play differently -and have a much different game engine in which to run around in- I'm starting to really warm up to her return. First off, I'm looking forward to seeing what can be done with Nadeshiko. Having an assist character in a game where no one else has assists is always comedy gold. Even though I don't know how good it will be I'm also looking forward to seeing what can be done with her microphone talks. SF5 seems to be trying to make certain you can't simply zone out grapplers without consequences since both Birdie and Mika can now easily hang back and build meter. It certainly beats poor Zangief having to sit 'n spin while on the other side of the screen.
quote:
Maybe they'll make Nadeshiko one of her alts so you can play as her with Mika as the tag partner.
I hope so - I prefer Nadeshiko's no-nonsense style to Mika's gimmicky looks. That might actually get me to consider buying the game, although ideally Nadeshiko wouldn't bother with the microphone and butt attacks.
Here's hoping for some Yun/Yang-style divergence in a later game...
That's the problem I see with having a Nadeshiko alt; it wouldn't seem right for her to be trying to build up Mikamania hype during the middle of her fight with her straightforward style. Maybe at some point the two characters will diverge but right now I'm hoping Mika's ending is her and Nadeshiko wrestling over who is the actual tournament winner.
quote:
The IGN rewind video shows a sign in the background of the stage reading "Thanks [for something or other]". The sign has a character on it that looks a lot like Maki from CvS2. Does anyone know if this sign was on this stage since the beginning or if this is a new addition??
A rather poor look at the sign can be seen here.
quote:
I still have trouble believing all of Siliconera's list, because the way they showed the arrangement for the starting roster was 8 in a green rectangle, 4 in a red rectangle for new characters most likely, and 4 in a blue rectangle--these are, as for now, just Alpha characters. It might actually be that the blue slots are more of a mix between Alpha and 3 as if it was a container for those not coming from Street Fighter 4. Or maybe the green is actually for SF2 through SF4 (including 3), and that's where Urien and Alex may land. On the other hand, I believe ComboFiend himself said "it's not that simple" when these notions came up, so really, anything can happen. So, you guys can keep your excitement levels up. But for TGS' reveal, people are guessing either Karin or Ingrid. Whatever it will be, I have to say I'm pretty excited! ...I just need a PS4.
Is Mika the TGS reveal or is there a second character coming soon? I have no idea anymore. At this point the only thing I know for certain about the Siliconera list or any other rumor about this game is that it will be debated right up until the moment the game ships.
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| Just a Person 1661th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):RainBOOOOOW!" , posted Sat 29 Aug 01:34
quote:
Hmm, now that you mention Zangief, I wonder if he'll even be in the game this time around given we've already got Mika as a grappler. I always hold out hope that SFV will deviate even a little from having all of the SFII characters in it.
Well, considering SFV is supposed to have only 16 characters (at least initially) and Mika is the tenth or so revealed, we can be sure that not all of the SFII characters will be in SFV.
And that's my main surprise with Mika. My surprise isn't due to the fact that she is returning, as the SFIV upgrades did bring back several fighters who weren't exactly super popular (Dudley, Hugo, Rolento, T.Hawk, Dee Jay, Adon...), but due to the fact that she is returning IN THE MAIN INITIAL CAST. I'd expect her to return in one of the eventual DLC packs (assuming Capcom will follow the Killer Instinct route to expand the SFV cast after its release).
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Iggy 9969th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):NOW THIS IS STREET FIGHTER" , posted Sat 29 Aug 01:52
I was vigorously against R.Mika because she was trash in Zero3. Not merely because she was weak, but also her gameplay wasn't different enough to be interesting, her niche was already covered by several characters... The only new thing she brought on the table was her design, and in such a crowded game, it wasn't enough.
But since most of her moves have been replaced and the only thing that remains is her design, I am very happy to welcome the first SF character with her own tailor-made striker system. You go girl!
She's a female character with a body type that is unique in SF and very uncommon in fighting games in general, and she's also one of the rare wrestling characters that broadcast everything goofy about their discipline (the only other I can think of is Beowulf). Not a goofy wrestler like Fuerte, whose moves themselves are as serious as Zangief's or Clark's: she's a wrestler that's not pretending she's doing anything else than a show (too bad the opponent didn't get the memo).
Another thing I like about this reveal: even more than Birdie, Nash or Ken, the improved Mika proves that nothing is set in stone, and the days of SF4 forcefully transposing characters into a different system without adapting them are over.
They can now bring back anyone they want, even Joe, Retsu or Sean; I'm confident they'd find a way to make something out of them. Heck, I'm even curious to see how they would tweak Sagat to finally make him an interesting character.
My only disappointment so far is Cammy, still a snore-fest without any of the improvements Decapre should have given her. The backgrounds are also few and lame, let's hope they will keep adding them in the future.
Finally, there is something to be said about a fighting game that invites Mika and Necalli together in its limited starting playground. That unlikely couple is a sort of reverse Juri+Hakan, the over-the-top-seriously-evil and the over-the-top-goofy, with Ryu as the martial-artist-boring-on-purpose in the middle.
Only Street Fighter can bring such different characters together in its universe and still remain coherent and focused (Well, Smash could, but that's another story).
Oh! And hopefully, if Mika gets the slot of the joke character, we could even be spared Dan! If Mika can save us from the unfunniest character in existence, she's even more welcome to stay.
Now let's hope they don't forget about adding some actual new characters to the game...
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| Ishmael 5261th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):NOW THIS IS STREET FIGHTER" , posted Sat 29 Aug 11:03
quote:
Sure, fighting games have fairly loose definitions of "balance". And sometimes characters are meant to be weaker than others. Sometimes you had joke characters that were never meant to be serious. But with Dan, even with recycling a lot of Ryu/Ken assets, you had Capcom spending the effort to design a full-fledged character who was intentionally meant to be bad.
Which, paradoxically, makes him a great character. Winning with Dan isn't a victory with an intentionally inferior character, it's a statement about the inherent doom of fighting games. Once you have more than one character in a fighting game the ideal of balance is lost. Programmers can try to make certain that every character has the tools necessary to win but the concept of a perfectly balanced fighting game is a lie people tell themselves so they can sleep at night. Dan exists to show people the truth. Other characters mock the concept of game balance -such as any version of Iori ever made- but only Dan is intentionally gimped. In this he proves the other truth of fighting games; you will always lose. Many factors play into a fighting game match but in the end your odds of success are 50%. All the joystick movement and button presses are simply a fancy way of flipping a coin. When you first start learning a game you are destined to lose, lose and lose again. People who are good at a fighting game only got there because they were willing to lose their way to victory. But even those who have stumbled to greatness know that one mistake will cause them slide to the bottom of the hill. Fighting games are nasty, brutish and short, where the only certainty is failure. Dan is the Game Over screen that awaits us all.
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| Spoon 3025th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "historical musings of the suplex" , posted Mon 31 Aug 10:17
The suplex in Greco-Roman wrestling has a legitimate application within the rules of Greco-Roman wrestling because making your opponent's shoulders touch the ground is a scoring/winning condition, together with it being a throw of grand amplitude, etc. Now, I imagine that the rules of winning/scoring weren't quite so particular in the earliest incarnations of the sport, but that throwing your opponent really hard would be grounds for winning because let's face it winning by KO is pretty much the oldest winning condition of any combat sport.
So here's the question(s):
The first time somebody landed a suplex in competition, what was the audience reaction like, and why has it not been more prevalent in the ancient artistic depictions of wrestling? Maybe the only audience at the time were other wrestlers since it hadn't yet become a popular spectator thing, in which case I imagine a whole bunch of burly wrestlers flipping their shi* and giving whatever their linguistic equivalent of "YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" was. But what about the first time pure spectators saw it? Maybe the artists charged with creating depictions of the events at the time needed to ensure the sanctity and grace of their depiction of athletic challenges, in which case overt depictions of HYPE would be taboo and unfashionable.
Lost to time, there was probably some pop artist who may have indeed been willing to attempt to depict the act without the graveness demanded by the state of the art, and this first brazen depiction of people going WHERE YOU AT WHERE YOU AT and otherwise losing their minds.
This is totally the kind of thought that occurs to you as you are working on things tied to synchronized animations for the Nth hour.
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| Spoon 3026th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):historical musings of the suplex" , posted Tue 1 Sep 01:54
quote:
I'm thinking the opposite. If the ancient Greek wrestling was a public sport for Olympiads, most of the guys (citizens) in the public must have been athletes themselves in their youth, meaning they had mastered the Art Of Suplex around age 10.
In other words, the delicate and artistic society of Athens was inhabited with people for whom a suplex was as trivial as picking your nose. People suplexed others in the street just to say hello, happy birthday or why didn't you reply my text message, and bystanders just rolled their eyes and said "dudes, grow up".
That may have indeed been the case long after the suplex had become a commonplace element of the sport. I mean, we live in an era where we tell our kids to stop playing with their science-fiction technology and video interacting with people on the other side of the world as a matter of course, daily. But what about when the suplex was invented/debuted, long before it had become an everyday element of life?
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| Spoon 3027th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):historical musings of the suplex" , posted Tue 1 Sep 05:49
quote:
I'm thinking the opposite. If the ancient Greek wrestling was a public sport for Olympiads, most of the guys (citizens) in the public must have been athletes themselves in their youth, meaning they had mastered the Art Of Suplex around age 10.
In other words, the delicate and artistic society of Athens was inhabited with people for whom a suplex was as trivial as picking your nose. People suplexed others in the street just to say hello, happy birthday or why didn't you reply my text message, and bystanders just rolled their eyes and said "dudes, grow up".
Greco-Roman antiquity was truly the golden age of muscle bombers. The Socratic method had sub-clauses in which vigorous debate could be supplemented with 'rasslin and the "Eureka" moment of Archimedes was actually accomplished when he body slammed a guy into a tub of water. The reason this manly method of communication was lost to history is because of incorrect modern interpretations. Much like how people don't think about the garish colors marble statues were once painted current scholars don't see these early moments of hype. The entire fourth row of this pot is dedicated to crowds raising the roof but current interpretations of the actions are far too genteel. Even by the Renaissance the history of hype was becoming obscured. Most students of art don't recognize that in [URL=https://en.w
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Notice the person in the red on the right of the painting, with a leg crossed in order to support the surface being used in whatever that person is writing/drawing. That person isn't sitting on anything, just has their back against a pillar while effecting that leg-cross. That person is pure Jojo.
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| Mosquiton 2062th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):RainBOOOOOW!" , posted Tue 1 Sep 15:03:
Wow, the cafe is really getting percolated. I really just have to jump in and reply to a few things.
TOXICO
quote:
I can say this years later because I never tried that abomination near release date, but FF XII holds the wonderful record of being the second game that has put me to sleep while trying to play.... Furthermore I finished FF XIII like 2 weeks ago and I can confidently say that the battle system is basically worse evern more so than FF I + I don't really appreciate battle systems that let me repeatedly press accept on the controller without even looking at the screen while reading a magazine and then reward me with capped battle scores.
To be certain, I can't think of a less enjoyable battle system off the top of my head. I get nearly as much enjoyment mashing buttons on a calculator. The pace at which the game's (limited) mechanical depths are "unlocked" for the player is also insulting. It's a game that misunderstands or ignores everything that was ever good about the series in the first place....
Oh wait! Street Fighter!
ISHMAEL
quote:
Now that I've thought about it, I've realized a lot of my antipathy for Mika comes from my not being a huge fan of her debut game. Since it looks like she's going to play differently -and have a much different game engine in which to run around in- I'm starting to really warm up to her return.
I can't say I didn't like Alpha 3, but I was never a fan of Mika either... I really didn't like the original character at all. But like you, I am dangerously close to becoming a convert.
With time, I think you might realize that the new outfit, far from being objectively worse, is actually an improvement. Getting rid of the ridiculous blue "heart nipples" is the best thing they could have done in the service of good taste. That outfit was the absolute tacky zenith of character design for the entire series as far as I'm concerned. The new outfit does show even more skin, but I feel like I can deal with the TNA overdose. Maybe my tolerance is higher than average.
Anyway, what a fun reveal trailer! The assist looks super fun and her animations look great! There is some real showmanship on display here along with the cheesecake, and some serious muscle power as well. Her heroic physique helps to sell the effect of these moves for me. Look at her lats and biceps when she throws that fool-launching uppercut in the reveal trailer... Vega (err... Claw) is feeling that impact. The Nadeshiko follow-ups on the EX throws really look like they bring the proverbial pain as well.
I was thinking I would go with Necali for my grappling needs, but the variety of throws here just looks like too much fun. I will definitely play this character in some capacity. My favorite character debut so far.
IGGY
quote:
My only disappointment so far is Cammy, still a snore-fest without any of the improvements Decapre should have given her.
Hmm... although they didn't change Cammy up too much I think calling her a snore fest is too far a stretch. I mean, she's definitely no FFXIII battle system. Had you been able to spend any time with the beta?
The tracking on the hooligan roll and spin knuckle can create some really fun/interesting/tricky situations. Swapping sides and then knuckle-crushing the opponent's kidneys into a counter-hit combo feels great and looks pretty damn professional. An MP followup gets you another backhand blow that looks particularly slick (in my opinion anyway). If they block, you could hooligan over their heads for more shenanigans. It makes her a little less predictable and definitely spices up her gameplay a bit. She is leagues beyond CvS2 Cammy, at the very least.
Not saying you should go out of your way to play Cammy if you're not a fan of her style, but I've been having fun with her after initially finding her a bit too straightforward. Finally having a useful hooligan roll is pretty major for me just on its own.
JUST SPEAKING IN GENERAL
I'm also pretty psyched to try out Vega... oops. I mean "the Vega of the West" "the Balrog of the East" err... "Claw". Being able to put away the stabby/pokey claw and switch your game plan to aggressive rushdown with the threat of a command throw if the opponent gets too defensive sounds awesome.
The new outfit has a few too many frills for my taste (literally), and his walk speed seems to be a bit slower than 30 mph*, but I still get some really pleasing Super Turbo vibes from this guy. I hear that the wall-bounce Flying Barcelona currently gets stuffed like a Turkey on Thanksgiving**, but maybe that will change or isn't as big a problem as it might initially seem.
Actually, I think I've just recently been able to pinpoint the thing that excites me most about Street Fighter IV. In Street Fighter IV, I felt the learning and practice requirements were so strict that just learning the timing/execution for one or two characters was a daunting feat. My Adon required constant maintenance in training mode to really be effective... if I wasn't on-point then I would lose out tons of damage from missing links/dropping combos. The guy doesn't hit very hard to begin with, and these flubs had cost me many matches which in my heart I knew I should have won (a certain amount of self-respect was lost as well).
In SFV though I felt like a handful of matches and an hour in the combo lab got me to a place where I could do solid, reliable damage in a variety of situations and still have the feeling that there was way more to discover.
Being able to play characters effectively is such a joy in fighting games. I am 100% down with Street Fighter V's approach of lowering the execution barrier. If I know I don't need to seriously dig into R&D to avoid looking like a moron, why not paint with all the colors of the rainbow (pun intended in retrospect)? Why not switch between Mika/Necali/Claw/Cammy? Why not try playing a bit with every character like I did in the original Street Fighter II?
In short, I'm kind of into this game.
* - that's 48 kph for International readers
** - I apologize for two region-specific references in one paragraph
Final bonus edit: "Hot Ryu" just doesn't do it for me, unlike everyone else in the world, apparently.
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Tue 1 Sep 15:18] |
| Just a Person 1662th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):MaryROOOOOSE!" , posted Wed 2 Sep 23:35
quote:
Interesting to see that the western characters (leave aside the obvious top pick) are all in the low zone. I'm sort of surprised that Tina's not in the top 9, given that she's one of the characters since the original DOA1 release.
What I find interesting is that the top pick is the super flat character. In a game known for the assets of the characters (memories of the Saturn version were the juggle was function of your age, and you could say you were 255 years old), it's a stark turn of events.
Since however lolies don't sell (at least much less than boobing boobies) in the west, I wonder what the series is going to do from now on. Can Senran Kagura add a loli and still be Senran Kagura?
Indeed, who would expect that the girl with small breasts would get more votes that many girls with big breasts in a game supposed to picture women wearing really small bikinis in volleyball matches, jet-ski races and whatever else Team Ninja adds. Even though Marie Rose is said to be 18 years old, seeing her in those bikinis will still be creepy (not because of her small breasts, but because she looks like a 12 year-old).
At first, I also had no idea why they wouldn't just add all the DOA ladies to the game. But the ones who don't get in the initial cast will probably be sold as DLC content, right?
I also wondered why the male characters wouldn't be playable in DOAX3 - then I realized how silly this question was. It was surprising enough when some of the guys got trunks as alternate outfits in DOA5U (and they were supposed to be MMA clothes, not swimwear)...
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Ishmael 5265th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Fall of Japanese arcades" , posted Fri 4 Sep 01:24
quote:
I also wondered why the male characters wouldn't be playable in DOAX3 - then I realized how silly this question was.
I think they should add also male characters for the sake of equality, and they should all wear banana hammock costumes.
By doing this, surely this game will gain a lot of attention.
We're living in the age of Ryu's beard (which, let the record state, was first recognized by kofoguz) so bring on the DoA boys. Let's see what sort of tan lines they can end up with!
quote:
That being said, it must help that there is only one petanko to choose from, concentrating the votes from all its potential supporters
That's a very good point; Marie Rose actually looks different from the rest of the cast. In the past the female DoA characters all had pretty much the same body type. But even with the wider variety of character design found in DoA5 Marie Rose really stands out. True, Honoka is built out of her character model but she has a different silhouette so Marie Rose still feels unique. It's a shame that Mila has gotten lost in the shuffle but it feels like no one has quite figured out what to do with her when it comes to presentation.
quote:
I can't say I didn't like Alpha 3, but I was never a fan of Mika either... I really didn't like the original character at all. But like you, I am dangerously close to becoming a convert.
After watching some early footage of Mika it looks as if, outside of a few nods to her old animation, she's a different character. Wait, make that a different and fun character. I never would have guessed it but it looks like I'll be heading to Mika for my grappling fix.
quote:
I just saw on Nikkei that the Japanese arcade market has shrunk by 43.9% over the past 7 years, largely attributed to the rise of mobile games. Somebody please save Japan's game industry
While it's not unexpected that's a drastic drop. Is it just the little hole in the wall arcades that are closing or are the larger places that house big, elaborate machines going out of business as well?
Speaking of things going away, that FTP Soul Calibur game is shutting down.
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| karasu 1557th Post
PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):Fall of Japanese arcades" , posted Fri 4 Sep 04:35
quote:
Hmmmm. After Necalli, I'm a lot more confident in their ability to make classic characters look appealing or different than in their ability to make new characters. I'd put money on Sakura on the Classic Roster, which would be just fine by me, and Gouki, who is apparently inevitable. Sadly, the increasingly full Returning Roster will force me to choose between Urien (for better pairing with Sexy Ryu) and Skullomania.
You said it about Necali. I'm always glad to see new faces, but as much as I loved Hakan and Juri's designs in IV, Necali just doesn't do it for me.
Oh, and would that Skullo was legally able to be in this game! I'd settle for Urien absent him though. It would be good and suitable to at least have one returning character from the underloved SFIII.
In other news, Look Who's Coming to Mortal Kombat X. (Not really. No new characters are named, just that there are 4 of them.)
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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| Mosquiton 2063th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Fall of Japanese arcades" , posted Fri 4 Sep 05:22
quote:
Shining some somewhat obvious light on the roster for SFV
Hmmmm. After Necalli, I'm a lot more confident in their ability to make classic characters look appealing or different than in their ability to make new characters. I'd put money on Sakura on the Classic Roster, which would be just fine by me, and Gouki, who is apparently inevitable. Sadly, the increasingly full Returning Roster will force me to choose between Urien (for better pairing with Sexy Ryu) and Skullomania.
Classic:
1. Ryu
2. Ken
3. Chun-Li
4. Balrog
5. Vega
6. Cammy
7.
8.
New:
1. Necalli (Ick. Mok-kos help us...)
2.
3.
4.
Returning:
1. Nash
2. Birdie
3. R.Mika
4.
To me this doesn't quite jive with the Siliconera rumour of Alex/Karin/Urien. Would even one of these characters be considered "classic"?
No offense to the characters themselves, I think all three are pretty cool designs personally, but none of these guys were in Street Fighter IV and they crammed all the usual suspects and more in that one. I would think they'd all be vying for the one returning spot.
I'd actually kind of like the last "Hasn't-been-seen-in-a-while" to be Necro. Somehow I feel that having a stretchy-limbed fighter is something that V will want to keep. And if Blanka doesn't make it, they have that callback in there as well! Maybe emphasize the electricity with the V-Moves.
V-Skill: Electric Blast (bzzzzzzt)
V-Trigger: Electric Snake (used as stocks, low damage/high stun, maybe two versions: low attack and arcing overhead)
Critical Art: Electric Storm
Hahahah. That's how I would do it, anyways. I do really, strongly suspect there will be some long-range hitting zoner-type of character in the game, but of course this type of role could also be filled by one of the new characters.
Speaking of new characters, I still don't think Necali is that bad... even though the more I look at him the more I feel like the character is missing something. I'm also hoping a good alt costume will pull the hair back, at least until you hit the V-Trigger.
But with three more chances to roll new characters, I think it's pretty likely they will come up with at least one that's somewhere between good and great. Street Fighter IV certainly wasn't a huge success, but I did think Viper was a pretty cool design on paper.
/ / /
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| shin ramberk 425th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):Fall of Japanese arcades" , posted Fri 4 Sep 06:33
quote:
Returning:
1. Nash
2. Birdie
3. R.Mika
4.
To me this doesn't quite jive with the Siliconera rumour of Alex/Karin/Urien. Would even one of these characters be considered "classic"?
Nope. I think the definition of "classic" being used is "anyone that appeared in USF4." Because if you are not "classic" then you are "returning." Alex, Karin and Urien would fall under the "returning" category.
If we assume that Capcom is choosing "returning" characters based off their originating games, then...
Birdie represents SF1.
Charlie/Nash represents SFA
R Mika represents SFA3.
So maybe the last spot should go to SFA2 or SF3? Or maybe even Final Fight?
If SFA2 takes the last spot then Sodom takes the spot. He could also count as an FF character too...
If SF3/3S takes the last spot then you have Alex, Urien, Necro, Oro, Sean, Q, Remy or Twelve.
Let's say the last spot goes to SF3, I would discount Remy (Charlie clone), Sean (shoto-clone). I would bet on Urien. I don't know why, but I really think it's gonna be him. My gut tells me so! I think Urien is the most popular of the remain SF3 characters and I think Capcom could cook up some new things for him to use in SF5.
Regardless, its fun to speculate and its interesting to have a "map" we can use to base our speculations.
http://ramberk.blogspot.com
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| chazumaru 1548th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):Fall of Japanese arcades" , posted Fri 4 Sep 17:38
quote:
I just saw on Nikkei that the Japanese arcade market has shrunk by 43.9% over the past 7 years, largely attributed to the rise of mobile games. Somebody please save Japan's game industry
It does not help that the traditional supporters of arcades are the one making money with mobile. So there is little incentive to save the market. VR would have really helped here but companies like Namco settled their VR efforts for the consumer business instead.
Regarding SF5, I think we'll get an announcement at each event. There is one in Dubai, one in Brazil and TGS. I am fairly convinced the original "Arab character" rumour was true and will be confirmed in Dubai. It will be interesting to see which specific nationality they pick but I guess EAU. I also expect a Brazilian character to be unveiled in their home country. Either a new character, Blanka (unlikely at launch), Sean or Oro. I would bet on Oro because it fills a slot for SF3, the sealed arm has some potential with V-Trigger, and it fits the official statue theory we discussed earlier.
In terms of mechanics and game flow, as a person who always rejected SF4, I really like what I see of the game so far.
Même Narumi est épatée !
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| Just a Person 1664th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(6):Fall of Japanese arcades" , posted Fri 4 Sep 23:03
quote:
Returning:
1. Nash
2. Birdie
3. R.Mika
4.
To me this doesn't quite jive with the Siliconera rumour of Alex/Karin/Urien. Would even one of these characters be considered "classic"?
Nope. I think the definition of "classic" being used is "anyone that appeared in USF4." Because if you are not "classic" then you are "returning." Alex, Karin and Urien would fall under the "returning" category.
To be fair, I don't think all USFIV characters would be considered "classic". More like the 12 SFII characters, plus Akuma, Cammy (MAYBE T.Hawk, Dee Jay and Fei-Long could enter this definition since they debuted in the same game as her, but I'm not sure), Sakura, Dan and the SFIV characters who managed to appear in other games (Juri, C.Viper, Abel and MAYBE Rufus and Seth).
I really doubt that Decapre would be considered "classic", for example.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Maou 2885th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sat 12 Sep 04:07:
I'm pretty sure Spoon was kidding. But yeah, at the time, plenty of Japanese people paid attention.
Vegeta glasses aside, Rashid is appealing because his martial art AND his appearance build on good-natured caricatures and iconic national traditions, just like the best of the SF2 cast. It's a surprisingly endearing formula that really explains how some characters last and others do not. Like the first Lupin III films in the 1970's, Street Fighter derives a great sense of liberation and energy from its globe-trotting and from what Lupin's director referred to as 実証主義 (positivism) in the form of real brands and equipment and machines---or in Street Fighter's case, real martial arts and people who looked like they came from a real culture (however exaggerated). I suspect that the original cast was particularly memorable because their moves and their appearance were identifiable in a way that could still feel cool to the nation in question. Well, except for Blanka.
All love for SF3's animation aside, one of many reasons so few of its characters are memorable is that neither their moves nor their cultural background are identifiable. Who the hell are these people? The exceptions were the best-loved and returned. Ditto for SF4, really. Only Hakan is a joyous realization of a national art and national "feeling." I heard some people who liked Juri, which I never got for the same reason: taekwondo, but she's just designed as "crazy person" as opposed to "Korean." I think it falls flat. As for C.Viper and Rufus...what the hell is their point? They don't look like anybody or like they come from anywhere. Necalli is disappointing for similar reasons. He looks like "a bad guy" and not "a person from a culture using a particular fighting art." Only Vega is allowed to do that.
In conclusion: yes to Rashid.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sat 12 Sep 04:33] |
| talbaineric 6283th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sat 12 Sep 16:27
quote:
I'm pretty sure Spoon was kidding. But yeah, at the time, plenty of Japanese people paid attention.
Vegeta glasses aside, Rashid is appealing because his martial art AND his appearance build on good-natured caricatures and iconic national traditions, just like the best of the SF2 cast. It's a surprisingly endearing formula that really explains how some characters last and others do not. Like the first Lupin III films in the 1970's, Street Fighter derives a great sense of liberation and energy from its globe-trotting and from what Lupin's director referred to as 実証主義 (positivism) in the form of real brands and equipment and machines---or in Street Fighter's case, real martial arts and people who looked like they came from a real culture (however exaggerated). I suspect that the original cast was particularly memorable because their moves and their appearance were identifiable in a way that could still feel cool to the nation in question. Well, except for Blanka.
All love for SF3's animation aside, one of many reasons so few of its characters are memorable is that neither their moves nor their cultural background are identifiable. Who the hell are these people? The exceptions were the best-loved and returned. Ditto for SF4, really. Only Hakan is a joyous realization of a national art and national "feeling." I heard some people who liked Juri, which I never got for the same reason: taekwondo, but she's just designed as "crazy p
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Yeah, the vagueness of Viper and Rufus was annoying. They could've been from anywhere, not just America.
I agree. Rashid for the win. I think he's gonna be a cool character. Judging by his "likes" he doesn't seem to fall on the evil side.
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| Just a Person 1666th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(3):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sun 13 Sep 00:09
quote:
He is using money and technology to become a super hero street fighter?
Well, C.Viper did the same thing, so it's not surprising that other people would follow her steps.
Speaking of Viper, Maou's analysis was great! But curiously, SFIV apparently subverted the relation between cultural representation and popularity: Viper managed to appear in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 and its Ultimate upgrade (plus both SFIV OVAs) and Rufus was chosen for SF X Tekken; meanwhile, Hakan and El Fuerte remained restricted to SFIV and its upgrades, and neither of them seem to be popular among players.
I guess that's due to the mentality of current fighting game players, who seem to be much more obsessed with statistics and tiers than with nice characters and fun gameplay, more concerned with winning than with having fun playing the game. It's quite sad, I think.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| kofoguz 1188th Post
Red Carpet Premium Member+
| "Re(1):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sun 13 Sep 04:38
quote:
All love for SF3's animation aside, one of many reasons so few of its characters are memorable is that neither their moves nor their cultural background are identifiable. Who the hell are these people? The exceptions were the best-loved and returned. Ditto for SF4, really. Only Hakan is a joyous realization of a national art and national "feeling." I heard some people who liked Juri, which I never got for the same reason: taekwondo, but she's just designed as "crazy p
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I had my impressions the other day and I am too lazy to re-write so here's copy-pasta-Edit;
Ok loved him at the same time disappointed in him (because of the bland-ish outfit).
I like his style cause wind using characters is always cool obn my book, plus he has the element of surprise which I am heavily dependent on
I like fast characters that makes opponent stunned because they don't know what to expect.
I Love his Super. Loved it, because the thing I hated is redeemed here(the outfit).
Because his design (not the movement) is not Street fighterish.
Hakan was a really good representation of well-thought stereotypical caricature of character which fits both the game and his own design.
Only the coolest bland character is Abel. He's awesome.
But in Juri's case; she kinda fits the bill (Korean without not being SF stereotypical crazy Korean outfit) because her gameplay and the empty "really evil(not brainwashed) lady spot" is filled thanks to her.
Plus Jolyne though I don't see it at all.
Rufus was a good try (eventhough I hate him) but failure because his character is obnoxious. If he wasn't a big goofball, and had his caricaturish american tropes (biker, obese, pop-corn eating big mouth) in front instead of Dan's borrowed over-self-esteem and out of the blue Ken hatred maybe he wouldn't be you know hated (at least not by me) not being a -three dimensional but also an outrageously stereotypical- character. Also redesign is due if he comes back (hope not).
C. Viper is a success because she fills lots of things. Captain Commando, Vanessa type of woman, milf, an agent, mother and she had a style.
Hakan I believe is a huge succes. I remember I wrote why it's bullseye design. It's like designer watch everything about oil wrestling, watch this one movie of actor Hulusi Kentmen (which in the film is an oil producer who also wants to make best oil and angry at people who says otherwise or industrial agents).8 children is not that common in general but not so rare in country. (I am number eight in my nuclear family as my father was in his and I have over-100 cousins). Angry but passionate fathers are asure thing here, younger hot wives also a thing excep there's no way on earth she could wear that sexy outfit in the country but it is ok. It's SF.So he is pretty much how can a perfect oil wrestler be if he is in Street Fighter. White eyes are let down though.
Yeah Rashid's costume is a bit bland to be honest. Love the geenie super as I told it before. Its as good as yoga fire. Yes, I liked how he was moving fast, jumping hyperactively, also yes his face is familiar to trope Arabic merchant type that is also naturally handsome and correct. I have Arabic friends whose face is stereotypical like him. Which Hakan lacks of he has a good face but the eyes is minus. The only tiny miny fault in his design imo.
Rashid eyepatch is unnecessary
I think Mature was the last character "ok, she didn't need the eyepatch but ok, it looks cool "kontenjan"
As for the outfit I want something crazy
Like Hakan's hair beard/hat/cap/what the he'll is it kind of crazy. Overall I liked Rashid and he will be one of the other characters I will choose besides, Karin. R. Mika, Eagle, Alex T-T .
Finally someone said previously that SFV is going KoF and I agree fully after seeing Rashid. Maybe thats why I am genuinely hyped for a SF game.Rashid is a positive type of "borrow this move from someone and create your own set" type (Helllo skullgirls) of character which happens to be a succesful one, not just a carbon-copy. He has Adon, Urien, Kensou, Choi, Andy but he is Rashid.
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| Mosquiton 2065th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sun 13 Sep 10:33:
quote:
All love for SF3's animation aside, one of many reasons so few of its characters are memorable is that neither their moves nor their cultural background are identifiable. Who the hell are these people?
As for C.Viper and Rufus...what the hell is their point? They don't look like anybody or like they come from anywhere.
Well...
quote:
Yeah, the vagueness of Viper and Rufus was annoying. They could've been from anywhere, not just America.
Now let me say in advance that I'm not calling anyone out here, but truth be told this kind of thing is of issue is of huge interest to me and my CA meter is full. I have already input the motion so please bear with me here.
Okay, so. Isn't that the thing about North America? Our culture incorporates many other cultures, some elements are blended/melted/smelted, some elements are distinct but still a part of the broader culture, and some elements have nearly been erased and forgotten. Unlike the UK, which has also grown fairly diverse, the United States is a young nation. We don't have a rich culture that stretches back thousands of years unless we trace it back to other countries. Where Dudley is an archetypal English Gentleman, Boxer/Mike Bison is a caricature of an individual (of course, Mike Tyson) and draws from much a less positive stereotype.
What we do have is a legacy of breaking the yoke of colonial rule, a ton of immigration, and the mere remnants of cultures that used to exist here before they were marginalized and effectively destroyed. This last part is, I think, the reason it's so tough to make a Native American fighter that doesn't seem like a bad stereotype. The bad stereotype is tragically pretty much all that's left in our shared culture. It doesn't connect to pop culture in any way that's more meaningful than white people wearing feather headdress to raves in the desert, or calling a sports team "the Indians" or "the Redskins". Well, the film "Dances with Wolves" was part of pop-culture only, err, fifteen years ago. It does at least try to reflect the tragic history.
But leaving that aside for now, let's talk about Crimson Viper. I'm sure nobody on this board would be so crass as to walk up to her and ask "So what are you, anyway?" Surely we don't need her to "pick a team" or anything like that. But come on guys. Does she feel un-American in any way? She works for the C.I.A., that's pretty darn American isn't it? To me, the design works (disclaimer: character was better before they gave her mono-boob). She's a bit cocky, she has (SNK-ish) style, she's all about spy-tech, and she overall feels "American". A personal opinion, of course.
But part of what I'm saying is that culture isn't always something you can see. Know who could have been an American Street Fighter character if they stuck a bit closer to their inspiration? Fei Long. Bruce Lee was an American. He was born in San Francisco! I'm sure many MMCafe-goers know this, but a lot of people simply assume he's from Hong Kong because of the HK cinema connection and, of course, the way he looks. Nope. Maybe if Hollywood had cast him instead of David Carradine in the Kung Fu TV series this would be better known/better remembered.
Actually, in a lot of ways I guess Hollywood is the definitive version of American culture as seen by the rest of the world. At least, that's what international box office figures would suggest. A whole lot of people have seen movies like The Avengers and Fast and the Furious. Which reminds me, a great example of an internationally famous American has just sprung to mind. His father is a Black Canadian. His mother's family background is Samoan. He is a former college football player/pro-wrestler and current Hollywood superstar. He is Dwayne "Some People Still Call Him The Rock" Johnson.
And hey, Vin Diesel is still pretty famous as well. After all, Furious 7 is among the top five international earners of all time. Who does he look like? Where would you think he comes from? The man describes himself as being "of ambiguous ethnicity". Regardless, the dude is American. Born in California, grew up in New York. It's that simple.
Now if I saw a guy that looked like Dwayne or Vin throwing fists in a Street Fighter game, I'd probably assume they were Americans. Same with MMA fighters like Gina Carano (her background is solidly Italian although she is obviously American) or Ronda Rousey. Side note on that: The concept of MMA doesn't really belong to the United States (Hi, Abel!), but female MMA fighters are kind of a thing in the US lately. In regard to Street Fighter, though, Dead or Alive kind of beat them to the punch there with Mila, I wonder if Street Fighter would be content to "follow" another series so soon. Eh, it's been a few years.
EDIT: I guess it's a street kind of streetwise toughness I get from these guys. They could definitely throw down in Metro City or in other streets (of Rage).
Anyway.
I hope I didn't get too soapboxy. I realize this was a bit of a rant, and I haven't given an opinion on Rashid yet! So let me say this. I think he is okay. I like the DBZ scouter, the garb looks tastefully legit, and he does feel like Street Fighter to me. But despite people saying they see a superficial similarity to both Adon (I guess it's the flip into dive kick people are talking about?) and T. Hawk (flying kick behaves a lot like Condor Spire) I'm still hyped on Mika and Claw.
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Sun 13 Sep 11:18] |
| Maou 2888th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sun 13 Sep 11:25:
quote:
CA meter is full!
Heheh, Mosqui-chan, this is excellent! But my problem from the design/martial art/caricature is tragically different, and works on a more core level: since I didn't follow the needlessly Tekkenesque SF4 story, I literally didn't even remember until just now that C. Viper is supposed to be an American! And this is what ties to the great success of the original SF2 cast and the small cadre of subsequent characters who were designed to last.
Nobi could put this better, perhaps, but nothing about Viper visually or style-wise shows me that she's American, the story scenario just tells me that. And I think the great designs do more showing than telling: based on the cheerful and generally positive national images that SF2 employs, we already know just a little something about who each of those characters is, just by watching them move and fight. The original SF crew is from somewhere, and Viper and Rufus are just...nowhere (wo)men, in the Beatles parlance. A common Viper put-down is that she "looks like she's from an SNK game," and while that's certainly a valid mode of design, I think what it can mean is that she lacks the positivism or true-to-life grounding details that make her seem like something familiar or SF-like, as opposed to a "fantasy character."
Happily, I think that you can indeed design a good American character who feels and fights "American." Guile is a brilliant, appealing caricature, and I already know a little bit about who he is when I first select him without ever reading a word of the SF2 manual. I think Rashid's in that same vein, to SF5's credit.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Sun 13 Sep 11:44] |
| Mosquiton 2065th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Sun 13 Sep 13:34
quote:
Happily, I think that you can indeed design a good American character who feels and fights "American." Guile is a brilliant, appealing caricature....
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
To say a final word on Viper, well, I admit she's no Vanessa.
One more thought, could it be that Street Fighter is running out of untapped regions? Rashid I think was a good possibility that had been left on the table for a while, and they were able to scoop it up and do a decent job with the concept.
I feel that they've had no choice but to open up some additional design space a little bit. And, although I'm a bit sad to say it, it's not the '90s anymore....
/ / /
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| Iggy 9980th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(9):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Mon 14 Sep 20:28
quote:
I also think folks forget how some designs have grown over time and we have grown fond of them over time too.
That is correct. I almost grew to tolerate Rufus after seeing him so often in tournaments.
I still think Viper doesn't belong to SF, visually or move-wise. She looks perfectly fine in MvC3, though. I wouldn't mind if she became a "versus game" character. Along with Ruby Heart, if she ever comes back...
I don't think I'll ever see Fuerte or Dee Jay and not cringe, though.
As for the Judo... it seems it's a difficult martial art all in all to adapt in videogame form. From the SNK side, we have Jubei, who failed to appear after Garô Spe, and Daimon. From my limited knowledge in martial arts, both are doing a fine job in picturing the martial art...?
WH and Fighter History had Ryôko... Is there a judoka in Virtua Fighter or DoA? Ah, and Buriki One had JACQUES DUCALIS, our favourite national character after Shermie. Hum... all in all, that's more than I thought. And visually diverse, too!
Maybe Abel in SF4 could have been a judoka? Maybe he mixes both styles?
About karate, isn't it what Makoto uses?
I was surprised it took up to Jean Kujo for VF to get their own...
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| Professor 4352th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(3):Re(10):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Tue 15 Sep 01:08
quote:
Speaking of judo in fighting games, is it normal for judo fighters to use punches and kicks? I always thought this fighting style consisted only of throws and immobilizations, but characters like Daimon, Ryoko or Goh Hinogami usually can punch and kick their opponents...
This doubt also applies to sumo fighters (Honda, Taka-Arashi, Ganryu...), by the way.
Neither punching nor kicking is allowed in Judo. Footsweeping is allowed, but that's about it. That's probably an explanation to why there's more Jujutsu characters in fighting games.
On the other hand, kicking is actually allowed in Sumo and technically speaking there's no rule to stop the athlete from doing low kicks or high kicks, just that they don't because it's not typically practical. Punching isn't allowed though.
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| Just a Person 1669th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):Re(10):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Tue 15 Sep 02:02:
quote:
Speaking of judo in fighting games, is it normal for judo fighters to use punches and kicks? I always thought this fighting style consisted only of throws and immobilizations, but characters like Daimon, Ryoko or Goh Hinogami usually can punch and kick their opponents...
This doubt also applies to sumo fighters (Honda, Taka-Arashi, Ganryu...), by the way.
Neither punching nor kicking is allowed in Judo. Footsweeping is allowed, but that's about it. That's probably an explanation to why there's more Jujutsu characters in fighting games.
On the other hand, kicking is actually allowed in Sumo and technically speaking there's no rule to stop the athlete from doing low kicks or high kicks, just that they don't because it's not typically practical. Punching isn't allowed though.
That's interesting! Thank you for the lesson, Professor!
quote:
About karate, isn't it what Makoto uses?
Supposedly, yes, it is.
The thing is - and I may be giving wrong information here, but that's what I learned when I had karate classes many years ago -, there are different styles (or schools) of karate. I don't think there are big changes from one to the other, but it may be difficult to say how accurate a videogame character is regarding to real-life karate, as her/his moves may lean more towards one specific school than another.
Then again, as I said, this information can be wrong...
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
[this message was edited by Just a Person on Tue 15 Sep 02:08] |
| Spoon 3044th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(7):Re(10):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Tue 15 Sep 03:23
quote:
Not too many Capcom characters use counter technique, right? Off the top of my head I think there is Remy, Cammy, Gouken, Dudly, and a version of Shin Akuma.
Karin is the only one who has a high/low counter, I think. Or does Gouken have one as well?
Spoon beat me to it but I just wanted to add that I feel foolish for forgetting about Karin. In my mind it was a huge deal that Capcom had introduced a counter character like her in the franchise.
It feels weird to me to describe her as a "counter character" when her counters are not only just one part of her moveset, they probably aren't even the defining part of it. Given that the significant majority of her special moves can be used in her rekkas, I think her special move identity is "rekkas", but even that doesn't seem to define her in quite the way it does, say, Fei Long. She's an abnormally complete character in terms of things she has: rekkas, overhead special, launcher, AA super, 360 grab, counters... I know cafe denizens in the past have described her as a "KOF character" in that regard.
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| shin ramberk 429th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(8):Re(10):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Tue 15 Sep 05:23
quote:
It feels weird to me to describe her as a "counter character" when her counters are not only just one part of her moveset, they probably aren't even the defining part of it. Given that the significant majority of her special moves can be used in her rekkas, I think her special move identity is "rekkas", but even that doesn't seem to define her in quite the way it does, say, Fei Long. She's an abnormally complete character in terms of things she has: rekkas, overhead special, launcher, AA super, 360 grab, counters... I know cafe denizens in the past have described her as a "KOF character" in that regard.
I completely forgot she had a 360 grab. I hadn't forgotten about her rekkas. Correct me if I'm wrong but was she the second franchise character to have rekkas? I also faintly remember her launcher and AA super.
She was very interesting because she used so many different types of attacks and motions. She was a little bit rush down and she was a little bit of a turtle/counter/360 throw character. On the surface, at least in my mind, she didn't have an instantly recognizable martial art and that sort of bothered me. But if you look at all her moves together, they do look like they fit together. It was like "Karin-Style-Smack-You-Around" martial art. Everything revolved around smacking you really hard in a humiliating fashion.
I always remembered her win pose where she folded her arms in a circular motion and set her head on one hand. And her belly laugh, the sound and the way her body bounced with it. Is there anyone else in SF that has as much in your face cockiness? Adon has bravado, Balrog is conceited, Sagat can be arrogant, and Vega is imperious/domineering--- but Karin is cocky without hesitation.
Hopefully she comes back. :)
http://ramberk.blogspot.com
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| Professor 4354th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(5):Re(10):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Tue 15 Sep 12:25:
quote:
The thing is - and I may be giving wrong information here, but that's what I learned when I had karate classes many years ago -, there are different styles (or schools) of karate. I don't think there are big changes from one to the other, but it may be difficult to say how accurate a videogame character is regarding to real-life karate, as her/his moves may lean more towards one specific school than another.
There's 4 major styles/schools of Karate. Some of these details are generalizations and might not reflect the current/modern derivations, but it should be good as an overview.
- Shitou-ryu
A speed-based karate created by Mabuni Kenwa in 1934 who studied under the father of Karate Anko Itosu and Higaonna Kanryō. The style's name Shitou actually borrows the initial from the two teachers. The style adapts Anko and Higaonna's two different Okinawa style karate, and also various other martial arts which Mabuni later learned including Jujutsu. It's often considered the closest style to MMA.
- Gouju-ryu
A hardhit style karate created in 1929 by Chojun Miyagi. Similarly to how the Shitou-ryu came about, Miyagi also studied under the father of karate Anko Itosu and fused Anko's Okinawa Naha-te style with other martial arts elements. The world-famous Koukushin Karate is a variation of Gouju-ryu. A lot of fighting games seem to borrow various aspects from Gouju-ryu and its derived schools. For example, there's actually a move called "Saiha" just like Yuri's (though it looks nothing alike).
-Shotokan
Probably the most famous karate style, and needless to say this is where the word "Shoto" comes from. The style was created by Gichin Funabashi in 1939 and alhough he never named his style "Shotokan", that's what people called it (the name's taken from the Dojo where he studied). Shotokan style adapts two Okinawa-style karates (Shoei-ryu and Shourin-ryu) and adds in various other elements. It's based on combat against opponents with blades, so its positioning to the opponent is usually in further distance than other karate styles. On a side note, it's likely that the Shotokan style became the most famous simply because of convenience in location-- Gichin started out in Tokyo and opened up multiple dojos in the city.
- Wadou-ryu
Created by Hironori Otsuka in 1938, Wadou-ryu is a mix between two styles of Jujutsu and three styles of Karate. I'm not too sure about Wadou-ryu since I haven't heard much about it.
On a side note, one of the things that distinguishes each style of Karate is the various "Kata" (stances) that they have. For example, Mr.Miyagi from the Karate Kid can be presumed as using a derivation of Gouju-ryu Karate since he uses one of its stances known as "Seienchin" in part 3 (come to think the character was probabably named after Gouju-ryu's founder). On the other hand it's unknown what style Cobra-Kai is because they never really show an identifyable stance in the film. Some people are theorizing that it might be Tang Soo Do.
[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 15 Sep 14:58] |
| Loona 915th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
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Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(3):Re(10):Rashid Rashid Rashid Rashid" , posted Wed 16 Sep 00:54
quote:
Speaking of judo in fighting games, is it normal for judo fighters to use punches and kicks? I always thought this fighting style consisted only of throws and immobilizations, but characters like Daimon, Ryoko or Goh Hinogami usually can punch and kick their opponents...
It's been a long time since I used the other Judo characters, both most attacks that come out when you press the punch buttons with Daimon consists of an open palm strikes, which can be interpreted as a threat to grab the opponent - and I guess they sort of turn into strikes if they can't near enough to affect to opponent's center of mass.
The punch attacks that aren't palm strikes, like the crouching hard punch that's more of a headbutt, can be similarly interpreted as an attempt to approach the opponent to grab him, I guess (in the case of the headbutt, from below, like trying to get your shoulder under their waist to help lift them).
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| Doshin
49th Post
Rare Customer
| "Re(1):It's Karin" , posted Thu 17 Sep 14:57:
quote:
Which would normally be cause for celebration, but aside from a few static pictures that show an unflattering face, I have no idea if I should be excited or not.
Do want to know what the V-Trigger for her will be.
I'm sure they can adjust the visuals. I feel the face is kind of weird, too, and kind of feared that, but it's just a transient concern that can be voiced to Capcom. They're in beta, afterall, no?
But, I'm impressed that they went that far at all. With all that talk about licensing issues and all (do these really exist with Karin?). So...does this mean Alex and Urien, afterall?
By the way, a video clip of her.
EDIT: Better yet, just watch the direct feed version.
[this message was edited by Doshin on Thu 17 Sep 15:05] |
| nobinobita 1464th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):It's Karin" , posted Thu 17 Sep 16:01
quote:
The new stance looks "cool", but I thought it was interesting that her SFA3 one had this look to it of being like an aikido stance, with her hands apart and lower to her waist. It gave me this impression of being really formal and serious and yet somehow cool, and somehow seemed appropriate for an aristocratic girl who had been brought up "properly"... but has this weird mishmash fighting style epitomized by at once having bajiquan elbows yet also that weird s.HP.
Of course, I really don't know anything about aikido, it's just an impression it left me with.
Yes! Agree with you 100% Her stance was already perfect. Really distinct and really sold her stern yet nonchalant character/personality. New stance just feels like a generic fighting game stance. The changes are arbitrary and don't serve any purpose other than to be different from what it was before.
Regarding her hair, it's supposed to look like it's drawn back tightly. The designer was probably influenced by Cammy and Chunli's hair, which is often drawn very close to the skull. It makes more sense with their hairstyles which recall gymnastics, ballet and Chinese buns. It doesn't make sense for Karin's aristocratic victorian/southern belle hair, which isn't typically pulled so tight. The combination of the tight scalp and poofy curly pigtails looks more like something out of a recent Moe magical girl show, except that she has an incongruously detailed face.
www.art-eater.com
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| Loona 917th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(4):It's Karin" , posted Thu 17 Sep 18:53
quote:
The new stance looks "cool", but I thought it was interesting that her SFA3 one had this look to it of being like an aikido stance, with her hands apart and lower to her waist. It gave me this impression of being really formal and serious and yet somehow cool, and somehow seemed appropriate for an aristocratic girl who had been brought up "properly"... but has this weird mishmash fighting style epitomized by at once having bajiquan elbows yet also that weird s.HP.
Of course, I really don't know anything about aikido, it's just an impression it left me with.
I practiced Aikido for a few years, and in the base stance we were told to keep one hand at waist level and the other close to eye level - it makes for a more complete defense. It's been years, but apparently it's not something that rigid.
Geese's FF3 illustration is a fairly decent take on it, although the legs seems a bit more spread than usual, although almost halfway into a horse rider stance.
Karin, however, probably wouldn't want to obstruct her gaze in any way - according to a tidbit covered by the SF plot guide, part of the Kanzuki education involves at one point going to space to get to look down on the entire planet at once.
Anyway, Karin's seems to be all about having as complete an arsenal as possible, not being particularly bound to any one style - if it works she uses it.
Nice to see Karin's look is deemphasizing the skirt. If her presence means Sakura will eventually be in, I hope both distance themselves from the prior schoolgirl looks, that can be left for DLC.
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| Iggy 9988th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):It's Karin" , posted Fri 18 Sep 04:25
quote:
If she isn't in the initial roster, she'll definitely be in one of the first DLC packs. Same for Sakura, Guile and all the SFII characters that don't make it to the initial roster.
I think one of the achievements of SF4 is that is freed us from the SF2 curse. No more will we have disappointments like the Capcom side of CvS1.
The massive sales of 4 made it so that the "classic" characters are now "everyone that appeared in SSF4". Yes, it includes the whole SF2 gang, but the pool to chose from is much more diverse.
Of course, most SF2 characters remain among the top choice (many people want Sagat, Zangief, Guile and Dhalsim in SF5) but Honda, Blanka, Dee Jay and (unfortunately) T.Hawk will probably all go to the same freezer where Sean, Necro and the remaining SF1 characters have been discarded until Capcom need them.
I wouldn't give a lot of credence to the leaks (except Bogard's Laura and Zen, since he was spot-on with Rashid and the V-Trigger). Karin, Sakura, Juri, Alex and Urien are all bound to happen eventually. Some of them will be in the starting roster, some will wait the first or second wave of DLC, but I'm pretty sure the plan is to have a final roster bigger than USF4 (at least that's what the business model needs). We'll all get them unless the game is revealed to be a colossal failure by April and they pull the plug.
What I mean is: the Urien/Alex prediction will happen. If they are not in the starting roster, the leaker will just say "they have been moved to DLC" and be proved right in the long term.
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It's probably going to happen every time the region gets a heavy volume of rain. This storm's been seriously surreal though; there's reports of flooding in places just an hour or so from Tokyo, but the city's been totally unscratched. .png)
