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| Just a Person 1646th Post
  
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|  "Re(8):SFV" , posted Sat 9 May 01:42  
Yes, I'd say overall SF has quite a diverse cast. Most fighting games seem to concentrate mainly in fighters from USA, Japan and China, anyway (N64's Fighters Destiny series may be an exception - then again, it's not like it has many characters).
But it would be really nice if SFV could add more fighters from Africa. Come on, it's a huge continent full of countries with the most diverse cultures; I think if Capcom does a proper research, they will find many more fighting styles there than just Capoeira.
They may not have time to do that, unfortunately. If I remember correctly, SFV is supposed to be released next year, right? At this point they may already have most of the cast being developed (even though only Ryu, Chun-Li and Nash are confirmed so far).
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Just a Person 1647th Post
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| "Re(10):SFV" , posted Sun 10 May 09:21
quote:
Here is a cool little map of all the characters and parts of the world they are from.
http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2009/10/08_streetfightermap.jpg
No Hakan? No Poison? Isnt Juli Native American? Other than that thats a cool idea.
Yeah, Hakan and Poison are missing. So is Decapre, by the way.
As for Juli, it's... complicated. If I remember correctly, originally T.Hawk would be related to a different Shadaloo Doll, named Noembelu (she appears in the intro for Juli & Juni's tag team in SFA3) - but since Capcom didn't care to make a "fightable" Noembelu, her role was given to Juli. Even then, though, it seems that T.Hawk is related to both girls: Noembelu is a girl from his tribe, while Juli is supposed to be a German girl who he met and fell in love with.
I guess this last part came from the UDON comics. People often debate whether they can be considered canon - but considering how Capcom itself never seemed to care much about SF's plot before SFIV, these comics may be better than nothing.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Mosquiton 2042th Post
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| "A little Birdie told me...." , posted Sat 13 Jun 12:06:
That a German site may have leaked a couple of new additions to the roster.
Shamelessly nabbed translation c/o Red Arremer from NeoGaf:
quote:
Among the already known participants Ryu, Chun-Li, Nash/Charlie and M. Bison, the veterans Cammy White and Birdie will take part as well. Cammy still plays as swiftly as she always did, focusing on speed and melee attacks. Birdie, on the other hand, is an enormous hulk who hits really hard and can take quite the beating. Although the giant is very immobile, he has an iron chain that gives him range that is not to be underestimated. That's why the big guy is way too strong in the current preview version. Capcom still needs to fine-tune the balance in that regard!
All things considered, it looks like it might be legit. For the purposes of fun speculation, I'll just assume it's true so I can yap about these two characters a bit.
I've always liked Cammy and played her a lot in the Zero/Alpha series. What's not to like? I'm guessing her V-skill will be directional hooligan roll... not sure about a V-trigger, maybe some kind of speed boost.
But Birdie! Kind of unexpected, but not bad! He could do with a bit of a style update... I wouldn't mind if he were slightly less dumb than a rock this time. But anyway, T. Hawk was basically my main in SF4 and this guy would fit the same kind of "people think this is a lame character design, but that's secretly his charm and he will crush you into a fine powder anyway" kind of template. Plus he bit off Vice's "Withering Surface" super, which I really enjoy for the gotcha-factor when a panicked opponent jumps backwards.
So I would guess his V-Trigger could have something to do with super armor? No idea what his V-Skill might be.
Edit: Maybe they could use it to "charge" his turn-punch-style headbutt without holding buttons... press once to start the charge, press again to set it off? Seems like it would be a handy way to eliminate (what I always thought was a) weird and awkward mechanic.
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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Sat 13 Jun 12:11] |
| Mosquiton 2043th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 12:39
quote:
Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.
As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?
Never let lack of confirmation keep you from the fun of speculation!
You know, since Ryu is still Ryu and Chun is still Chun, I wouldn't be very surprised if Cammy wasn't dramatically changed. Sure, she doesn't go as far back as the main cast, but considering her general popularity number of games she's been in, she's pretty close to "classic" status. I actually love hooligan roll, even though it's not an especially *good* move... so I'd greatly enjoy if it became a more interesting and viable part of her playstyle.
I admit that Birdie could definitely use some work, and he's been gone so long that very few people would think to complain if they changed up his game. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still a grappler that throws people around with a chain and still does Boxer-style dash attacks to close distance.
Would love to see some fun new stuff for both characters, as well.
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| Spoon 2916th Post
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| "Re(3):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Mon 15 Jun 12:59
quote:
Since it seems the folks making SF5 are more than willing to change even long established characters for this game I would expect that Birdie is going to get a full overhaul. That's probably for the best since, for me, he was a character who could do a great deal but didn't fully gel into a workable play style. Hopefully this new Birdie will keep the variety but lose the aspects of his game that worked against one another.
As for Cammy, I'm assuming she's going to be the rush down, in your face character for the game but what, if anything, are they going to do to make her different from SF4 Cammy? Has she been secretly replaced by Decapre and now spends the entire match charge dashing around the screen?
Never let lack of confirmation keep you from the fun of speculation!
You know, since Ryu is still Ryu and Chun is still Chun, I wouldn't be very surprised if Cammy wasn't dramatically changed. Sure, she doesn't go as far back as the main cast, but considering her general popularity number of games she's been in, she's pretty close to "classic" status. I actually love hooligan roll, even though it's not an especially *good* move... so I'd greatly enjoy if it became a more interesting and viable part of her playstyle.
I admit that Birdie could definitely use some work, and he's been gone so long that very few people would think to complain if they changed up his game. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still a grappler that throws people aro
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I think it's funny that of Cammy's iconic moves, they've never managed to make her spinning backfist and hooligan major tools in competitive play after literally decades of trying. The basic concepts of Cammy, a character with a variety of mobility special moves which are mostly strikes with a grapple mixed in to form a dynamic grappling threat, harkens to an attempt at what we probably now think of as "SNK-style grappler". I have to wonder how SF character design gameplay-wise might've changed had the grappling aspect of Cammy been more successful in her early versions.
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| Iggy 9924th Post
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| "Re(8):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 00:00
quote:
If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.
One of the probable issues in Smash, especially Smash 4, is to give each character personality or a system that sets it apart without any doubt. Ness and Lucas may be very different if you know them, but from an uneducated point of view they still appear as "clones", and I guess that's something Sakurai's team tried hard to avoid with Smash 4: Mac's jauge, Shulk's Monado, WFT's breathing move... so giving Ryu his own system "you need to input commands" makes sense (especially since if he only had had his 3 main moves mapped on the 3 direction, he would have been very similar to many existing characters).
As far as I could tell with my pre-school level in Smasheries, Ryu's main weakness (off-platform play chasing others off-screen, recovery) has nothing to do with his moves and commands. So in a way, the fact that moves can be performed the easy way and the hard, efficient way may also allow people to get used to his physics and mobility gradually, and only once they've mastered it try to do good with his input. It's an interesting twist to have Ryu in this game being the C-Viper/technical character, since he is more of an entry-level character in his own series.
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| Loona 881th Post
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| "Re(8):A little Birdie told me...." , posted Tue 16 Jun 17:57
quote:
I'm all for this sort of thing to even the playing field while rewarding going the extra mile with execution.
That's contradictory though. Rewarding going the extra mile with execution is unevening the playing field.
If Ryu is balanced for Smash inputs, but using Capcom inputs gives you a damage boost and other benefits, then using Capcom inputs gives you an advantage over the rest of the roster. From a balance perspective, that approach would pretty much trying to make Ryu overpowered.
If Ryu is balanced for (the slightly more difficult and situation-dependent) Capcom inputs, then anyone playing Ryu without using them is at a disadvantage both against the rest of the roster and against other Ryu players. It isn't the game balance issue of the prior approach, but it does mean that you've designed a character that is underpowered if not played in a particular non-standard way.
Wouldn't that also depend on the strength of the default version of his moves? I'don't really know how they stack up compared to the rest of the cast damage-wise.
In terms of body shape, range and weaponlessness, I guess he's closest to Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer and Captain Falcon - I'm curious to see how he holds up against those, since their moves are specifically designed for Smash (a little less in Mac's case, due to his more grounded approach).
Then there's the fact that Ryu's moves were designed to handle a single opponent at a time - in a more party-like setting with several characters on screen maybe he's just not as effective (his Hadokens probably don't do that well compared to the beam attacks some of the rest of the cast have as smash ball attacks, for example, and the Tatsumakisenpukyaku might compare poorly to stuff like faster and more direct dashing punches) - this may become moot in more competitive settings, of course.
I also wonder about the viability of using both the Hadoken and Tatsumaki commands in a platforming environment where you can turn either way - the Hadoken is clear enough, but how do you make one not come out in the opposite direction if you try to use a Tatsumaki? That's an issue players won't get with the default Smash commands, so that might be a consideration.
...!!
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| nobinobita 1423th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(4):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 18:19:
quote:
Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem.
As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned.
I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...
Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.
Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Street Fighter V
War Agony
The Street Fighter V England stage has a very flat look to it because it achieves the sepia look through a filter instead of naturalistic lighting. It's like a video that's undergone heavy post processing, or a photoshop/Instagram filter. It's applying the same effects evenly throughout the whole image, which robs it of its dimension and contrast. That's why for instance, there's no black in that image. The shadows fall short of it cos they're programmed to stop at that weird grey hue.
Oh Geez I just saw another image of that stage that's even worse. There's so little range of color here. It's just so bland and the execution is so heartless and cold. On top of that, the way the reds pop out is very garish and feels arbitrary. For instance the red phone booth sticks out like a sore thumb. Does it really need to be a visual focal point? Is that really the most important thing for your eye to be drawn to in that stage?
Now look at War Agony. Although it's actually a 2 dimensional pixel painting, look at how much more dimension it has to it. Although the overall color scheme averages out to be brown, there's so much depth and variety within it. Look at those purples in the sky. Look at the rightmost fence. How it recedes into a flat green, how it turns purplish as it advances forward, then back to green, then finally it becomes brighter tan color with insanely hot red highlights that DONT draw attention to themselves. And you know what's crazy? I just took the image into photoshop and eyedropped those colors, and they are actually all variations of orange. They just feel different because of slight variations in how warm/cold light/dark they are.
This is what Capcom used to excel at. Every little detail in their games was so measured and well considered individually and in the context of the game as a whole. The more I study them, the deeper I dig, the more I appreciate their 2d games.
Street Fighter V is like most things. The more you look at it, the more it falls apart.
I'm just sad to see something that used to be such a high water mark for quality descend into mediocrity, especially because I know they still have amazing people like Daigo Ikeno on staff, but they willingly choose to move the game in a direction more in line with contemporary Hollywood/AAA game-by-committee aesthetics.
Again, sorry for the negativity. This post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I don't want anyone to feel bad if they like how this game looks, I just wanted to articulate why I personally see Street Fighter V (and IV) as an artistic downgrade given its legacy.
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Tue 16 Jun 18:24] |
| neo0r0chiaku
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| "Re(5):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:16
quote:
Birdie... really let himself go, there. Per his Zero series chain slam line: go...to heaven! Poor Birdie. But wait...Birdie is white!? Maybe there is a lighting problem.
As for the art direction, I don't know. If we were in the late 1990's I'd be more shocked, but aside from Franken-Nash, people look better in-game than in IV (or maybe I was tired of weird flat-chested Chun-Li). I also like the official character art I've seen so far better than IV's dull, dreary stuff, sumi-e be damned.
I agree with Maou after bland and ugly Sf4 art direction I really liked clean claymotion/action figured like models. Except for Ryu's lifeless non-surprised surprised reaction to Nash's super... but I hate Ryu with passion, so...
Eventhough I dont know if I hate or love foggy/light/pale background colors, but I love how they let character models' colours shine.
Let's compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Street Fighter V
War Agony
The Street Fighter V England stage has a very flat look to it because it achieves the sepia look through a filter instead of naturalistic lighting. It's like a video that's undergone[URL=http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blueorang
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
I agree, even though I have not played much of the new games Capcom has provided, SF4 and now SFV still does not strike to me in terms of graphics quality. I think the reason its setup this way it to make sure no slowdown occurs to keep it fast. Even with that, it still can look a lot better. But then again, I am and always a 2-D guy and against 3-D.
Long Live!
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| Maou 2810th Post
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| "Nobithon" , posted Tue 16 Jun 23:42:
quote:
compare the sepia toned background of SFV to the sepia colored War Agony stage from Darkstalkers.
Oh Nobi, you picked the cruelest contrast possible! This is like cheap doujin vs. Hokusai or something. If they got SF Zero 2 and 3 running with netcode, I'd happily play them online with you till the end of days. And Vampire too, so Iggy won't yell at me, though I'm still too stupid to play it.
I love your analysis and agree with the dreary backgrounds...but I'm most interested in how you stack them up against IV, a game I played quite a bit of while hating the entire art direction, particularly the crappy music, boring stages, and stupid-looking characters (in and out of the game). Somehow, V's in-game and official characters look better than that insipid stuff from IV...again, except for Franken-Nash. God. Is it the sloppy stage lighting that's made it look like Birdie's pulled a Michael Jackson?
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 17 Jun 00:19] |
| Spoon 2920th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Nobithon" , posted Wed 17 Jun 00:23
I get that they don't yet want photorealistic human depictions of the SF characters, but the "solidly plastic" shading of the characters is an interesting decision to me. Not "interesting" as in "good" or "interesting" as in "oh, that's so clever", but "interesting" as in "why did they decide that?"
I'm still glad to see that Cammy has substantial muscles. The way in which her biceps, shoulders, etc. become more prominent when they're flexed is cool, and it stands out versus the always-hugely-muscled male characters. I don't know if she'll ever be as cut as she was in her SF2 incarnation (current UFC women's champion Ronda Rousey is nowhere near as trim as Cammy, and Ronda Rousey is literally one of the strongest women in the world), but it's good to see that her visible strength was acknowledged, by whatever committee is behind SFV, as a valuable part of her appeal.
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| Spoon 2924th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Thu 18 Jun 08:14
quote:
That's what we like to call big damage!
I think we're already there, and I'm actually a fan. The matches I'm seeing remind me a lot of Super Turbo, which in a lot of ways is my favorite SF.
I'd personally much rather see shorter combos and rocking an opponent with stun after a few flashes of sustained beautiful/savage/smart play rather than trying to squeeze every last pixel of life out of your opponent than making sure to squeeze in every jab/short possible on the front end of a combo and spend EX meter for just one more juggle hit.
I guess what I'm driving at is that nobody knows how to play the game well yet, so combos are only going to get MORE developed than what is already there. I'm all for short combos, too, but there's nothing suggesting that that's going to happen or not happen, while at the same time damage on even simple combos is pretty solid. Having the capacity for awesome link combos I think is generally better than not having it.
I mean, I love HnK, and coming from ArcSys land where practical 40% meterless damage is commonplace is something that isn't alien to me, but I'd rather that not be the norm in SFV. 3S had some crazy meterless stuff, but it was usually extremely situational.
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| Ishmael 5198th Post
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| "Re(3):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 00:43
quote:
I guess what I'm driving at is that nobody knows how to play the game well yet, so combos are only going to get MORE developed than what is already there. I'm all for short combos, too, but there's nothing suggesting that that's going to happen or not happen, while at the same time damage on even simple combos is pretty solid. Having the capacity for awesome link combos I think is generally better than not having it.
I mean, I love HnK, and coming from ArcSys land where practical 40% meterless damage is commonplace is something that isn't alien to me, but I'd rather that not be the norm in SFV. 3S had some crazy meterless stuff, but it was usually extremely situational.
I'm not good at reverse engineering fighting games but if I had to guess I would say that the strong characters in SF5 aren't going to be based around long combos but who has the best pokes and hit confirms into super. While it might be entirely possible that there are complex combos waiting to be discovered the articles I've read about SF5 seem to suggest that the game is being designed to avoid long, execution heavy combos. I don't know how the game engine will react to an absurd combo but I suspect it's going to be like your 3S example where it's more of a situational fluke than a regular part of a match.
I'm certain that SF5 is going to change wildly before release (heck, Chun-Li has already lost two moves!) but this E3 presentation did a good job of showing what sort of game they want SF5 to be. As it stands right now it looks really aggressive and designed with an old-school, high-damage approach. Whether or not that's going to pan out remains to be seen but it's certainly a world away from SF4.
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| Spoon 2927th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 07:22
quote:
I really hope the game stays in the SSF2 territory of short damaging combos. Yesss if we could have SSF2X high damage combined with Zero air-blocking, I'd be so happy. Someone tell me why I should dislike air-blocking. Aside from the bad art and music, that might be the other 25% of why I didn't enjoy SSF4.
Because without universal air throws and other supporting systems, air blocking in an SF game is too safe and has inadequate punishment.
SF4 and SF5 have deliberately chosen not to include any kind of guard gauge or guard crush system, so airblocking would not incur any of those costs, which means that the entire air-to-air game becomes really odd. Juggling is still fairly restrictive, which means not a huge amount of reward for successfully defeating the air block, which is an act that already requires more care than utilizing it. Chicken blocking would straight up beat a variety of other offensive strategies (e.g. hurricane kick / throw option selects).
Rose was deliberately designed with an anti-air that works the way it does because of air blocking. You can airblock Ryu/Ken DPs once their feet leave the ground, but you can never airblock Soul Throw, so Soul Throw beats empty jump in always. However, Soul Throw should lose to certain attacks, so that makes it more interesting than just "a DP that can't hit people who are on the ground". In SF4, however, Soul Throw feels like a weird thing to have at all.
I like air blocking, but just dropping it into SF4/5 as they are probably wouldn't be good for the game.
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| Spoon 2928th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Fri 19 Jun 09:13
quote:
Point taken. But wait: aren't you thinking in overly modern SF Zero 3 terms instead of SF Zero 2? SFZ2 had air-blocking but no universal air throws that I can recall, and the guard guage was also a non-issue for...most fighting games (? Certainly Street Fighter) until it appeared in SFZ3.
It's probably worth considering what kind of game it is that has the airblocking in it. X-Men COTA and beyond to the Vs. series, everybody is flying everywhere all the time, so since mobility was so great it wasn't a problem. KOF 98's airblock was so restrictive that it's largely a non-factor. Nobody took SFA1 seriously competitively, so who knows. SFA2 was thoroughly dominated by the Custom Combo system for the people that did play it seriously, and Custom Combos could punish anything, including air blocking. But it is true that SFA2 wasn't a whole lot worse for having air blocking, though perhaps mainly because CC overshadowed all other systems of the game. You can airblock in Cyberbots, but there are projectiles everywhere, so getting around without it would be obnoxious.
In the slower context of SF4, I'm just not convinced that it would make the game a whole lot better, given the already plodding nature of the game. There isn't a whole lot of stuff on the screen to deal with at any time (unlike Vs. series etc.), mobility is relatively low at a baseline (this isn't a game of airdashes/doublejumps/hyper hops/etc.), juggling is fairly restricted (being able to connect ANYTHING after a normal against an airborne opponent who is not already in a jugglable state is relatively unusual), etc.
It certainly might make the game more enjoyable at the low level of play that most people are at including myself (systems that make it easier to jump at people tend to do that), but it might make the game even more tedious at the higher level. I'm sure they gave it a try, though: after all, the game has plenty of SFA characters in it.
In fact, it probably would've been a really fun System Direction option. SF3 games had it in System Direction, and it was kind of amusing.
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| Spoon 2929th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):Re(10):Birdie and Cammy trailer" , posted Sat 20 Jun 02:44
quote:
To add on the air guard issue: if I recall correctly, one of the numerous reason why Zankurô Musôken was a disaster was the poor way air guard was implemented. Of course, that wasn't the only issue in the game, far from it, but that was one of the worst air guard implementation I've ever seen (everything can be guarded freely... and the game is Samurai Spirits, not MvC3) and that alone was enough to make me worried of air guard in any non-versus game.
The KOF98 one is good enough for me. And the Savior air guard is of course fantastic, but how could it not be.
Prof is right on the money with the business of throws being committed actions with whiffs. I can't believe I forgot to mention that! It's a big part of Guilty Gear, too, since throws can be option selected with fast normals (for better or for worse). I should check if Xrd still has FDC superjump, which more or less enables the strongest chicken block of any competitive game.
The counterpoint to all this to me will be Akatsuki Blitzkampf, in which everything is air guardable: supers, grounded moves, air moves, special moves... anything that isn't a throw. But the game itself is not an air dash/double jump game: it doesn't even have universal overheads, or short jump, or super jump! What it did have was a guard crush gauge, and one in which air blocking resulted in increased guard crush. Defending by holding up-back in the corner could lead to your opponent landing a full guard gauge guard crush strings! And being guard crushed in that game would see you landing in a vulnerable state for a lengthy time, so it's incredibly dangerous.
I think Vs. series games would be a lot less fun and also competitively less interesting if air blocking wasn't able to cover all bases the way it does. There is so much stuff getting thrown onto the screen all the time which enables continuous rushing strings from the ground and air that it just needs to be able to do that.
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| nobinobita 1429th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Mon 22 Jun 14:20:
quote:
It's not an indicator of the breast proportion; that's what the letter is an indicator of. You have to take into account that Chunli is a character who works out, and most likely has some development around her chest and upperback region.
A good point! But then again, I'm pretty sure that my memory isn't too far off.
Ah i love those illustrations! Chun Li has always had huge breasts in the art, they just weren't in your face about it (focus has always been on her legs).
Quote from Yoko Shimomura:
"Chun-Li has big thighs, right? So back in the day, I asked Mr. Yasuda, "Why does she have such big thighs?" And he started shouting and went off and was like, "I can't believe you don't understand the appeal." And he started explaining the attraction. And you know, I'm a woman and I asked the question but it kind of got awkward when he started explaining his fetishes. I mean, he has really strong feelings toward his creations. There's a reason for everything being the way that it is. When I heard that, I thought maybe that's something that everybody thinks, but everybody doesn't go out telling everybody. But he just told me."
source:
http://www.polygon.com/a/street-fighter-2-oral-history/chapter-2
(Polygon has some excellent articles sometimes!)
As Doshin has pointed out, muscle contributes greatly to bust size, which is why the men in Street Fighter have always had bust sizes that dwarf the women's.
Chun Li: 88cm (34")
Dhalsim: 107cm (42")
Ryu: 112cm (44")
Ken: 114cm (44")
Boxer: 120cm (47")
Spanish Ninja: 121cm (48")
Guile: 125cm (49")
Sagat: 130cm (51")
Dictator: 129cm (52")
Zangief: 163cm (64")
Blanka: 198cm (77")
E Honda: 212cm (83")
Someone should make one of those bust size profile charts out of this list.
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[this message was edited by nobinobita on Mon 22 Jun 14:23] |
| Baines 435th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):Chun-Li talent show" , posted Tue 23 Jun 03:34
quote:
I don't know, there's a pretty song subtext in that article beyond "the physics are inaccurate," even in some of the quotations. It looks like typical puritanical nonsense masquerading as some earnest concern about the supposed "sexualization of the character," whatever that's supposed to mean.
Okay, I've reread the article, and I've still not seen the subtext that you've apparently seen. The closest I can get is a two sentence spot in the article that one could read as a negative explanation of why few people appear to be upset about Chun Li's breast size.
The article itself is largely neutral. It reports quotes (both full tweets and some excerpt words from Reddit) of people complaining about the animation. It has a brief bit on issues with jiggle physics in games. It ends by supporting Capcom's explanation that the animation was a glitch.
As for the tweets, there are nine quoted. Five complain directly about the animation. A sixth is presumably complaining about the animation when he says "Chun Li's alien boobs".
Of the remaining three, one complains about the impracticality of fighting with such breasts. But that ties back to the animation, as large but more restrained breasts wouldn't be "a hazard to herself". For the record, looking at that poster's Twitter feed shows that they had also retweeted someone else specifically complaining about the poorly done animation.
The final two tweets instead talk about Chun Li's nipple bulges ... in the context of Capcom's explanation that the animation was a glitch. The article takes those tweets as posts by people who question Capcom's explanation, which is also how I read those tweets. I don't see any "typical puritanical nonsense" or the like. I admit that I haven't read through the replies to the article, but that seems a bit beside the point.
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| shin ramberk 423th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):I miss Q" , posted Fri 10 Jul 01:48
quote:
I would like to see Q make a comeback. Anybody else? I think he has potential, and the mystery around him needs to be solved.
I'm with you, but I think the Q dream died when they showed how Birdie plays in SF5, which is too similar to Q to allow both at least in the first version of the game (limited cast and all). Slow but wide reaching normals, self-buff, big hurt box...
Actually, I'm starting to wonder if the Q situation at Capcom might be like the K999 situation, a.k.a. "we shall never mention his name ever again". I don't think the holders of the IP of Robot Keiji complained officially, but...
I think you're right about the Q/Birdie comparison. It's a shame because I'm a fan of both characters and I'm ecstatic with the return of Birdie. I think his changes have made him more interesting.
I also see this as a similar situation with Remy. With Charlie in the game, it really robs Remy any chances of returning. Anything is possible but I doubt it. I'll probably really enjoy using Charlie but I always wanted Remy to return to a future game. He was always a good variation of Guile.
So far, it seems that Capcom have been mindful of providing good revamps of the classics. My optimism continues that this game will continue the trend started by SF4 in gaining more interest by new/casual players while providing satisfying play for veterans. (Thank goodness for Sony.)
http://ramberk.blogspot.com
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| Just a Person 1655th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(4):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Fri 10 Jul 22:57
quote:
Karin is unpopular?Well, maybe in the US, but in Japan is apparently another story.
I mean, Karin was a character in a Comic Gamest spinoff story on Zero 2 that some lunatic thought would be fun to toss in among the cast of thousands in Zero 3. Even if she happened to have been "popular" in Japan or the US and not just a (fun) throwaway character, I don't think that stretched beyond the world of Zero 3. Is she "relevant?" 17 years later with no word, I'd say no.
There was a rumor that back in the days of the SFIV upgrades, Karin was actually highly requested. Problem is, as you said, she wasn't really created by Capcom, so there were licensing issues preventing her inclusion. I don't know if it's true, but it's unlikely that she was left out of the SFIV upgrades because of popularity - I mean, how popular are characters like Hugo, Elena or Adon?
Now, about the current rumor about the SFV cast, it's weird to see that this game could have Karin and Nash... but not Sakura and Guile (who are not only much more popular, but who are strongly tied to Karin's and Nash's backstories and motivations). Then again, if Capcom decided to put Birdie in this game and redesign Ken to the point where he is very different from Ryu, I'd rather not doubt any rumor, no matter how weird it is.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| shin ramberk 424th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(5):April Fools was 3 months ago" , posted Sat 11 Jul 00:12
quote:
Now, about the current rumor about the SFV cast, it's weird to see that this game could have Karin and Nash... but not Sakura and Guile (who are not only much more popular, but who are strongly tied to Karin's and Nash's backstories and motivations). Then again, if Capcom decided to put Birdie in this game and redesign Ken to the point where he is very different from Ryu, I'd rather not doubt any rumor, no matter how weird it is.
My preference would be for the cast to be 1/3 classics, 1/3 new and 1/3 heavily revamped classics. Right now it looks to me that Ryu, Chun Li, Cammy have the least amount of changes and Birdie, Nash, Vega and Ken have a lot more revamping.
I am perfectly okay with some fan favorites to be missing. For example, if Zangief and Sakura were to be missing I would be okay with that. If they were to return, I'd want them heavily revamped. But that's just me.
It looks like Capcom is taking some calculated risks here and that's good. SF4 with the focus system replaced by the v-system is a good thing but you need to revamp the characters or we'll get bored a lot faster.
http://ramberk.blogspot.com
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| Spoon 2953th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6): intolerable BGM" , posted Sun 12 Jul 13:03
quote:
But, but the 3S soundtrack is such dross compared to the smooth grooves of the first two! "3S: as slow-paced as SFZero2 without the cheerfulness, as dull as the dumber SFZero3 tracks without the fun bass."
The problem for me with the 2I OST is that it's TOO smooth. It's smooth to the point where there are tracks which I have no idea how to associate with the character, like Ibuki's theme or Ryu's theme. The music is totally enjoyable to listen to, and I don't want to insist that all my fighting game music has to have pounding bass and pulsing intense rhythm, but a lot of the time when I was first playing 2I I found myself wondering if this was some hacked/bootleg version with the music swapped.
Some of the songs in 2I sound like precursors to Nujabes tracks, which I can dig.
I do appreciate that SF kept bringing new styles of music into its games, though! I quite liked the SFA3 music, even though it seemed to veer far away from the iconic theme songs of SF2. I still think it has some amazing visual/audio moments, like when the -ism slams into place at the start of the match.
quote:
I'm going to take inspiration from Doshin's comment and say SFV should be purely and ridiculously in one style, so let's make it dubstep. I would also dig an all-bluegrass or all-ska SFV.
If we're going all-ska, I instead propose a move to jazz fusion, except instead of the marimba-infused 2I style, we take what seems to be jazz's noisecore, Moon Hooch. They literally sound like a bunch of angry geese at times, which makes me think they would actually be a better for a new Fatal Fury.
quote:
Or maybe they can save us a lot of time and just use Shimomura's tracks straight from SFII.
Ooh, fun experiment: suppose that's what they did for all returning characters. In order to maintain that same spirit, what do they do for new characters/characters that didn't exist for SF2?
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| TheRedKnight 412th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 04:21:
quote:
Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!
I feel that the best way to start this discussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?
If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?
For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.
These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.
*T-Square, Casiopea, Naniwa Experience, Naoya Matsuoka, Prism, etc they're all on Youtube.
videograpple.tumblr.com/
[this message was edited by TheRedKnight on Sun 26 Jul 19:14] |
| neo0r0chiaku
65th Post
PSN: n/a
XBL: IAMDC1
Wii: n/a
Occasional Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Mon 13 Jul 07:13:
quote:
Zangief's theme certainly felt that way! Could all of it be categorized that way, though? It certainly seemed like a lot of ending/credit songs of the 90s had some sort of smooth jazz element to it. I don't know enough about music, though, so do enlighten me!
I feel that the best way to start this disctussion is to link this: Guile's Jam.. ..or is it?
If you take your time and listen to the big names in Japanese jazz fusion* you'll start to see the big picture which is that there isn't much originality in 80's video game soundtracks. Back then video game music composers just took what was popular and didn't need vocals. Jazz fusion was perfect for that. These guys and gals companies like Sega and Capcom hired were just musically talented engineers, not really composers. Not people who could churn out an album full of original hits. If they could, they would not be working for video game companies would they?
For example, Out Run took everything possible from Naoya Matsuoka's body of work. Even the idea of sounds of the waves splashing is from Matsuoka's album. They just transferred those ideas into a video game. Just like the characters from Street Fighter are just based on anime/manga influences. You get what I mean.
These are just my opinions, as I'm sure some people don't want to hear this kind of stuff.
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Its funny how you brought this up because lately i have been adding to a youtube playlist of musics or songs that VGMs from the 90s sampled from back in the 80s and 70s. Many VGMs sampled from various types of music and artists. Dance, Electronic, rock, Jazz etc. I was baffled with some of the tracks I found from video games. nowadays, people are using these VGMs from the 90s into songs at this point of time. Sample to be sampled!!!
quote:
*T-Square, Casiopea, Naniwa Experience, Naoya Matsuoka, Prism, etc they're all on
Japanese jazz fusion from the 70s and 80s. Sounds like i will be having some new music to listen to this week at work! Thanks for this information. The music sounds great!
Long Live!
[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Mon 13 Jul 07:21] |
| karasu 1529th Post
PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(7):Re(10): intolerable BGM" , posted Tue 21 Jul 00:32
quote:
So.. no one cares about the new character? The design is pretty all-over-the-place-yet-boring-at-the-same-time AKA Killer Instict style.
Designwise there's not really that much special to him. I didn't really think of him as like Kars, either. It seems Capcom just wanted to have some edgy character that western fans might like...? I agree that he is pretty boring in that aspect. Can't say much about the gameplay part, yet.
Truthfully, I'm not especially put off by his design. As to whether I like him as a playable character or not, I'll have to try him out to see.
I think Capcom is in a funny spot right now, where nearly everything they produce gets put under a microscope to find out just what it is that everyone hates the most (which has been my experience with reading people's reactions elsewhere online). This guy has a lot of shades of Blanka to me, or is at least a similarly out there 'bestial' character, and my guess is that in 1991 nobody was screaming about how awful and how much of a Wolverine ripoff Blanka was. It's funny, when this guy was teased at the end of Ken's intro video, within about half an hour a few people I know went through a series of speculations about who he was, and for each speculation, they had an accompanying reason why he would suck, but none about why he would be interesting or good.
Personally I'm always happy when Capcom takes a chance and introduces a new character, and as far as SFIV was concerned, I was mixed as to which ones I liked. I suspect we'll never return to the glory days of SFIII when a tiny subset of returners will be accompanied by an almost entirely new cast, but any direction away from 'Super SFII plus a few new folks' is just fine with me.
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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| nobinobita 1455th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(7):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 11:59:
quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.
Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.
I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.
I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.
Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)
Also, I think if some moves could come out even quicker without a charge, the characters would be overpowered. I remember playing CVS2 on a Gamecube, where you could assign special move shortcuts. A blanka who can walk forward into a roll is terrifying!
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sun 9 Aug 12:02] |
| Spoon 3005th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 15:48
quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.
Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.
I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.
I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.
Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)
Also, I think if some moves co
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
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| Spoon 3007th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Sun 9 Aug 15:48:
quote:
I actually hope they keep Vega as a noncharge character. It fosters a playstyle more suited to his speed. On the other hand, I think Birdie should probably go back to such.
Looking back on it I'm not certain why Vega has been a charge character all this time. The only reason he has remained one for so long is because those were the motions he was initially given and I suspect no one at Capcom back then gave the matter too much thought.
I think special move inputs were originally assigned based on how they matched up to the motion of the action on screen. So QCF conveys the feeling of the iconic fireball motion. DP represents the feeling of moving forward, then crouching down for some leverage and releasing that energy in an upward motion. The charge moves represent storing energy and releasing it in the opposing direction. They all "feel" right.
I think for gameplay purposes, the general convention is also that if a special launches the entire character quickly in a straight line, it will be a charge move. Blanka's roll, E Honda's torpedo, the Psycho Crusher, Urien's chariot tackle, Vega's roll and dive attacks. They all "feel" right as charge moves.
Cammy's Spiral Arrow still has a little bit of an arc to it, so it feels better as a QCF. I think it's mostly about feeling and intuition (I can usually guess a Capcom character's move inputs from the way the animation looks. I can't do this for SNK games consistently)
Also, I think if some moves co
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal, but as the games have progressed that has mostly stopped mattering and it's mostly become "which archetype do we want to stick on this character for a given playstyle". The entire reason why Dhalsim's teleports use all 3 punches/kicks in ST I believe is because there aren't different versions of the move for each of the different strengths of punch/kick. Now, it using the DP motion is partly because they didn't want to make it charge and he's already got a fireball, but the notion of the motion mimicking the animation/action is totally out the window. On the flip side, in USF4, Decapre could totally be a command character and not a charge character and it would feel just fine, but it'd probably be too powerful.
Charge motions are really convenient for making moves that are safe on block, or giving them advantageous startups/recoveries since the charge naturally limits how frequently you can throw it out. Guile's sonic boom in CvS2 starts up fast and recovers fast, so with Easy Operation in the console version, it's monstrous. The whole "move forwards horizontally" thing is quite relevant for this because making the move a charge move means that the character can't walk forward and then do this move. This is big! It's one thing that it leads to needing technique/supplemental moves that allow the character to move forward while building/holding charge (e.g. Guile's b+HK makes him step FORWARD and kick, rather than sliding backwards as the motion would suggest, like in the manner of his b+MK), but it also encourages interesting character design built around this. Dictator Bison gets a very fast walk speed and some strong horizontal and close normals, like his deadly standing LK, along with great throw range and throw damage... but walking forward negates his ability to charge! Not only that, he has no command normals which move him forwards! So when he advances on the ground, he loses the ability to immediately call upon his fast, safe on block scissor kicks. Certain normals of his also cannot be cancelled into scissor kick if he hasn't either gotten close enough to land a series of blocked attacks that would let him build charge (so walking up, doing a d+MK doesn't immediately yield a combo into scissor kicks, but getting very close yields the deadly and safe st.LK st.LK cr.MK xx scisssor).
So how does that play into Claw's SF2 game? Claw has the fastest walk speed in the game, long reaching normals, and much like Dictator, no normals that move him forwards. What that means is that if he wants to do a special move, he can't do it if he's walking forwards and angling for a throw. One of his important and threatening actions, walking forwards, completely shuts off his ability activate some of his others. That's huge.
The technique which charge necessitates together with the strategic considerations it creates can be really interesting, and that's something which non-charge characters never really have to deal with. Charge characters often get higher-quality moves of certain kinds (e.g. projectiles) because the limitations on performing them balances them.
[this message was edited by Spoon on Sun 9 Aug 17:53] |
| chazumaru 1539th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(3):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 16:36
I assume Ex Robert had many additional property changes in KOF2002UM (new hitboxes, priorities and moves), and not simply the different commands, right?
Here we go:
quote:
Ciudad Juarez, Mexico July 2011 Tier List for KOF 2001:
Banned:
Igniz and Original Zero
S+:
May Lee, Angel, Foxy (w/unblockable), Hinako (w/infinite), Kula (w/infinite)
S-
King, Heidern, Takuma, Robert
A:
Vanessa, Iori, Clark, Leona, Choi, Yuri
Mid Tier:
Everyone else
Même Narumi est épatée !
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| Loona 907th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 18:59
quote:
Dictator Bison gets a very fast walk speed and some strong horizontal and close normals, like his deadly standing LK, along with great throw range and throw damage... but walking forward negates his ability to charge! Not only that, he has no command normals which move him forwards! So when he advances on the ground, he loses the ability to immediately call upon his fast, safe on block scissor kicks. Certain normals of his also cannot be cancelled into scissor kick if he hasn't either gotten close enough to land a series of blocked attacks that would let him build charge (so walking up, doing a d+MK doesn't immediately yield a combo into scissor kicks, but getting very close yields the deadly and safe st.LK st.LK cr.MK xx scisssor).
Well, Dictator does have his slide, which moves him forward and can be used while charging vertically or horizontally (even if it's not a terribly safe move, it can catch less experienced players unaware), and must be blocked low - I don't recall if his scissors kick must be blocked high (or of that depends on the game), but if so, that's a little mind game he can apply. Claw has a slide too, so that might apply to him as well - I'm far from a master of either character.
Doing away with motions like Sommersault Justice is in the very least a stop forward, and that alone makes Claw more of an option for me if that's changing as well, even if I'm not expecting to pay much attention t SF5 for the time being.
...!!
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| Baines 441th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(9):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Mon 10 Aug 22:59
quote:
In the beginning the notion of "the motion should mimic what the person is doing" was a big deal,
Looking closer, it seemed a bit more "follow the standards" than "follow the action" anyway.
Ryu's Hadoken is as much a back-to-forward move as it is "down-to-forward". If you ever had anyone demonstrate it (or perhaps demonstrated it yourself) while talking about inputs mimicking motion, then I'm willing to bet that person exaggerated the downward part of the beginning.
As for the Shoryuken, you have a move where the purpose is to go up into the air that never has an upward input, and which ends on a downward input. There is no "forward" to the start of a shoryuken, as the move starts with "downward". (If you want to say that "forward" comes from the standing start, the hadoken also starts standing but doesn't start with "forward".)
The hurricane kick is a spinning kick that moves forward, but has a QCB input. One would think it would be back-to-forward as well, or end in forward.
A lot of this seems as much mechanical concerns as any attempt for inputs to mimic the starting actions. The dragon punch didn't have an "up" component in order to prevent accidental jumping when the player failed the input. The hurricane kick was QCB in order to prevent overlapping with the fireball, even if the two used different button.
So the most iconic motions were at best shaky on the "mimic the action" concept. Later Capcom characters would alter the concept further, with inputs that reflected motion beyond the start-up (as the explanation for Ryu's moves require that you cut off the input after the start-up in order to justify the dragon punch not ending in an upward direction and the hurricane kick not ending in forward.)
Charge moves tended to carry basic direction-of-movement information, but even that was hit-and-miss. Chun-Li's forward moving spinning kick was charge-down-to-up (with people saying it reflected the flip she did at the start), while the forward moves of other charge characters were back-to-forward. (Of course once people realized how overpowered crouch-block was, every charge character effectively ended up starting their moves by rising from a crouching pose.)
Of course we do have some wacky SNK inputs...
|
| Spoon 3007th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 06:17
quote:
Well, Dictator does have his slide, which moves him forward and can be used while charging vertically or horizontally (even if it's not a terribly safe move, it can catch less experienced players unaware), and must be blocked low - I don't recall if his scissors kick must be blocked high (or of that depends on the game), but if so, that's a little mind game he can apply. Claw has a slide too, so that might apply to him as well - I'm far from a master of either character.
Doing away with motions like Sommersault Justice is in the very least a stop forward, and that alone makes Claw more of an option for me if that's changing as well, even if I'm not expecting to pay much attention t SF5 for the time being.
I guess I excluded those because they have traditionally been very unsafe on block outside of highly specific situations. Like in CvS2, Bison slide could be safe on block if it was done extremely meaty, but it's definitely not a "regular poke that moves you forward + lets you build charge" like Guile's step kick. Scissor kick has never been an overhead, thank goodness.
The super motions being bigger and grander motions (e.g. ZANGIEF'S SUPER IS TWO SPDs SO YOU SHOULD DO TWO 360s) as the supers are for most characters bigger and grander versions of existing moves, while also making them more difficult to use in combos, as well as introducing new challenges to their execution (e.g. how to buffer a 720). But it clearly isn't the case that Ryu or anybody else with a QCFx2 does a double pump with their hands in their super.
The QCF+PPP makes a lot of sense!
A long time ago, especially when I was really new to fighting games, successfully executing a super felt like an achievement. It literally was learning a technique, and while it can be derided as "going through the motions" (quite literally!), there's something to the learning of being able to do something fluently that is special. It's like doing dance steps or becoming fluent in a piece of music: yeah, they're rigidly defined and you are literally going through the motions, but the entire notion of "adding to a repertoire" is a real and gratifying thing. Especially in the day when your arcade budget was limited, choosing to put your money into a game where you can't do all the moves because you don't have the mechanical proficiency yet was a big decision! I don't know if I'm relieved at not having to have to deal with that anymore or if I'm sad that a generation will grow up without getting to feel that special feeling of "Wow! I can do this now!".
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| Loona 909th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 18:29:
quote:
Looking closer, it seemed a bit more "follow the standards" than "follow the action" anyway.
Ryu's Hadoken is as much a back-to-forward move as it is "down-to-forward". If you ever had anyone demonstrate it (or perhaps demonstrated it yourself) while talking about inputs mimicking motion, then I'm willing to bet that person exaggerated the downward part of the beginning.
As for the Shoryuken, you have a move where the purpose is to go up into the air that never has an upward input, and which ends on a downward input. There is no "forward" to the start of a shoryuken, as the move starts with "downward". (If you want to say that "forward" comes from the standing start, the hadoken also starts standing but doesn't start with "forward".)
The hurricane kick is a spinning kick that moves forward, but has a QCB input. One would think it would be back-to-forward as well, or end in forward.
A lot of this seems as much mechanical concerns as any attempt for inputs to mimic the starting actions. The dragon punch didn't have an "up" component in order to prevent accidental jumping when the player failed the input. The hurricane kick was QCB in order to prevent overlapping with the fireball, even if the two used different button.
So the most iconic motions were at best shaky on the "mimic the action" concept. Later Capcom characters would alter the concept further, with inputs that reflected motion beyond the start-up (as the explanation for Ryu's moves require that you cut off the input after the start-up in order to justify the dragon punch not ending in an upward direction and the hurricane kick not ending in forward.)
The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.
For the Hadoken, to me the core of it is that Ryu starts by grounding himself to build up power before thrusting forward. Look at his back leg - its all about going from a slightly bent position to stretching it, pushing the ground under him to thrust his center of mass forward - Hadokens and their game/anime ilk are basically ways to visualize this kind of application of force.
For an interesting example of the importance of footwork in martial arts, look into Kung Fu Hustle - while the movie usually doesn't take itself too seriously, you can still tell the people who coreographed it knew a thing or two about martial arts basics (the scenes involving applying twists to joints are particularly amazing, and something I've rarely seen given that much emphasized focus despite their importance in martial arts). Later in the film when the protagonist "awakens", his very first actions against the antagonist gang don't involve his hands at all - it's all footwork and how he shifts his weight to move between his opponents, dodging, pushing and throwing them off-balance (edit: actually he does punch a bit, but the lack of arm work early on is still remarkable for an action movie).
For the Shoryuken, if you think of it as an emphasized uppercut, disregarding the fact it takes to the skies (it's often at its best when it lands the early hit still in the ground), it also makes some more sense - to be effective you have to be at closer range ( ) than a more traditional straight punch (the arm's more bent), and it's a hit from below that's generally meant to hit either under the ribs or the chin, meaning that the arm's movement starts and ideally ends slightly below a more conventional punching height.
As for the Tatsumaki, while it does make the character move forward, it does involve him turning away from the opponent (multiple times depending on the kick strength) in order to spin the way he does.
IIRC Street Fighter EX at least the early games, took this notion to heart by making you perform a QCB+K for every kick actually performed in the move, since each kick made you spin one more time.
Something like Marco's Hienshippukyaku in Garou can be a QCF since it's a strictly forward-moving attack while the character's always facing his opponent, but SF took a different route early on and stuck to it. That it worked out and kept the motion clearly distinct from the other Ansatsuken specials was a fortunate case.
quote:
It's an interesting problem that you can also see echoes of in the console versions of Fatal Fury, which made the rest of the cast playable (but which, if I remember right, were completely different sets of commands because the ports were handled by two different companies), and of the move from Fatal Fury 2 to Special, which made the bosses from 2 (and Geese) playable for the first time.
Technically Geese was first playable in the Megadrive port of FF1 - he didn't have nearly as many moves, but IIRC his counter used that game's throw button, which is a terribly adequate thing that only the DoA series is even close to replicate AFAIK.
...!!
[this message was edited by Loona on Tue 11 Aug 22:37] |
| nobinobita 1455th Post
Red Carpet Executive Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Tue 11 Aug 18:46
quote:
The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.
For the Hadoken, to me the core of it is that Ryu starts by grounding himself to build up power before thrusting forward. Look at his back leg - its all about going from a slightly bent position to stretching it, pushing the ground under him to thrust his center of mass forward - Hadokens and their game/anime ilk are basically ways to visualize this kind of application of force.
For an interesting example of the importance of footwork in martial arts, look into Kung Fu Hustle - while the movie usually doesn't take itself too seriously, you can still tell the people who coreographed it knew a thing or two about martial arts basics (the scenes involving applying twists to joins are particularly amazing, and something I've rarely seen given that much emphasized focus despite their importance in martial arts). Later in the film when the protagonist "awakens", his very first actions agains the antagonist gang don't involve his hands at all - i't all footwork and how he shifts his weight to move between his opponents, dodging, pushing and throwing them off-balance.
For the Shoryuken, if you think of it as an emphasized uppercut, disregarding the fact it takes to the skies (it's often at its best when it lands the early hit still in the ground), it also makes some more sense - to be effective you have to be at closer range () than a more traditional straight punch (the arm's more bent), and it's a hit from below that's generally meant to hit either under the ribs or the chin, meaning that the arm's movement starts and ideally ends slightly below a more conventional punching height.
As for the Tatsumaki, while it does make the character move forward, it does involve him turning away from the opponent (multiple times depending on the kick strength) in order to spin the way he does.
IIRC Street Fighter EX at least the early games, took this notion to heart by making you perform a QCB+K for every kick actually performed in the move, since each kick made you spin one more time.
Something like Marco's Hienshippukyaku in Garou can be a QCF since it's a strictly forward moving attack while the character's always facing his opponent, but SF took a different route early on and stuck to it. That it worked out and kept the motion clearly distinct from the other Ansatsuken specials was a fortunate case.
This guy know's what's up.
Thanks for conveying this way better than I could have. Do you have experience with martial arts in real life?
www.art-eater.com
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| Spoon 3012th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Wed 12 Aug 04:00:
I remember actually trying to do a Hurricane Kick in real life decades ago (and failing...), and in doing so the motion made sense to me!
I think it's definitely the case that some motions have become a vernacular for something over time, as the motions themselves have become a language to describe character archetypes. "Charge" character, "360" character, "fireball/dp" character, etc. If you look at two of the most prominent running grabs in SF, Gief's running bear grab and Hugo's meat squasher, it's really hard to find a body motion in there that fits the 360 controller motion. By the same token, there are some moves that can have multiple rationally justifiable motions.
Hell, there are some motions that flatout don't exist in Capcom games that I could imagine SNK using (e.g. QCF,UF,U, an extended extended-QCF). I remember a Dragonball game had a U,D+A move, but the more (relatively) recent example in my mind is from Arcana Heart, which had (charge U),D+A. It's a motion that makes a lot of sense, except that it run counter to the jumping mechanics/controls of most fighting game.
Bonus questions:
Which was the first game to use jump as movement direction and not a seemingly separate button (e.g. SF compared to Mario)? Alternatively, which was the first to use jump as a seemingly separate button?
[this message was edited by Spoon on Wed 12 Aug 06:31] |
| Baines 442th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Wed 12 Aug 05:39
quote:
The way I see it, the motions make sense in terms of how the body would shift to perform them and/or how they're aimed.
My problem here is that such arguments end up indistinguishable from after-the-fact justifications.
I won't discount the possibility that the inputs were derived from the animation. They came from somewhere, after all. At the same time, they were certainly constrained by gameplay concerns. (No upward directions that might cause an accidental jump. No motions that would be too easy to perform by accident.)
But is this really a case of someone looking at the different animations and deciding the inputs, or is it that after the fact people have studied the animations looking for a predetermined motion?
If you already have the motion you want to find in mind at the start, then it certainly becomes easier to "find" that motion.
You could easily argue that Ryu's fireball has a back to forward motion. It would probably be easier to argue that compared to QCF, as there is very little "down" to the animation, and you could use the same downward force argument for down/back or for the shift from back to forward.
I probably first heard the idea of "forward" == "closer range" for the dragon punch motion in an arcade during vanilla SF2's era. The person might even have mentioned stepping forward into range. But closer range than what? Ryu's regular uppercut? Wasn't that already a close range move? And whether a person goes with "moving closer" or just "meant to be closer", that person has already used a different standard to justify the dragon punch input than they used to justify the fireball input. You also need a different standard on where to end the input, as the fireball motion ends with the forward movement (forward force) while the dragon punch ends before the upward movement (upward force).
Once you get to Street Fighter 2, it gets even harder to support the idea of inputs reflecting motion. People get DP inputs when their move is an analog of a dragon punch, not because their move is animated with the motion of the dragon punch input (unless they ended up with a charge/flashkick input.) The same goes for fireballs and forward ground movement. Charge moves hold the most basic of movement information (back-to-forward or down-to-up), but of course most moves were going to be forward or up movement anyway. Charge super motions later break even that connection.
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| Iggy 9957th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Re(10):A simple yet exciting move" , posted Wed 12 Aug 18:39
This whole motion thing has always seemed an afterthought to me. Yes, it works in some cases, Honda, Guile.... but then Dhalsim's head when doing a yoga fire clearly goes U,UF,F, not down.
So, they probably thought about it in SF1 for Ryû and Ken, went on for a while while designing SF2, but even before World Warriors was finished you can see they were taking liberties with the notion.
Thank god.
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| karasu 1546th Post
PSN: robotchris
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Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(6):Re(10):A simple yet erotic move" , posted Thu 13 Aug 01:05
I think it's extremely likely that SF1 was the launching off point for any sort of special move that didn't just require a button press, but then once SFII was being developed with that same concept in mind, it likely became obvious to the programmers and designers that it couldn't always be a one to one correlation between how a move looks and what its motion is. The final step in this transition was at some point moves were added to the game where the motion was dictated by the kind of move it is. A case in point for this is the whole list of command throws that are initiated with a 360 + P. To me, you could argue that the move's appearance dictated the command type, but my guess is that once the spinning piledriver was given the 360 + P command (which made some sense given the way the move looks), any other command throw was then assigned the 360 + P.
And then once SFII dictated the first few special inputs, they became part of the standard buildout for almost all fighting games, with the particular exception of SNK's fighters prior to the point when all the moves were 'standardized' to some extent. I'm forgetting exactly when this happened, but I think by KOFXI most of the hugely complicated supers and so on had been simplified.
I think part of the reason for this is that there are only so many special move commands that are at the same time simple enough to both memorize easily and perform, easy enough to detect programmatically (and mechanically, since arcade sticks of the early 90's got enough use that they were prone to damage and/or poor quality), and don't overlap with other moves or behaviors like jumping (although a lot of early fighters didn't follow this rule). Someone has already pointed out one example of this last piece involving half circle from down to up + button moves and their overlap with jumps, but another example is Joe Higashi's Tiger Kick which started out as     , a move that led to tons and tons of jumping kicks instead of Tiger Kicks back before everybody had fighting game reflexes trained by 25 years of Street Fighter competitive play, and before SNK had improved and relaxed the code checking and timing for special inputs. In Joe's case, I think by KOF'96 or something they had moved him over to a much more feasible DP+K motion. There are other examples though, where specials overlapped with specials-- I want to say that SamSho had a few like that, but I'm mostly thinking of crappy SFC fighters.
Anyway, interesting subject!
On a related note, Loona mentioned Ryu's Hadoken animation from a martial arts perspective, and I was surprised to see (and surprised that I had never noticed) that even though he's rooting into his back leg as he thrusts forward with his palms he lifts up his rear heel. Is anybody here familiar enough with Shotokan Karate to comment about whether this would be typical for a strike like that (and this also assumes that there's a strike in Shotokan that's equivalent to the motion of throwing the hadoken, which may be assuming too much)? With the the kung fu I'm familiar with, in order to get any power from an equivalent strike, the back foot should be firmly rooted.
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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| Spoon 3012th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(8):Re(10):A simple yet erotic move" , posted Thu 13 Aug 07:53
Weaponlord is always brought up as an underappreciated game mechanically, though it always felt clumsy to me to play.
There's a myriad of technical considerations that went into the game, ranging from having a universal command "parry" that could be used in ambiguous cross-up situations and was put in because Weaponlord was designed to work well with the SNES' online service, Xband!
Its special move system also deserves mention given the whole business of "what kinds of motions are acceptable". Since upwards directions made you jump, any special move with an upwards input is notoriously tighter: standing 360s were a classic challenge, how to buffer 720s, how to make THawk do a 360 without jumping because he has faster prejump frames than any other character in the game, etc. In Weaponlord, holding a button locked you onto the ground, during which you would input the special move, which would execute after releasing the button. It had these exotic motions like F,U,UF which would be totally unthinkable in SF. It didn't always feel good, but it was a cool idea.
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| Loona 910th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
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Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(7):Re(10):A simple yet erotic move" , posted Thu 13 Aug 18:13
quote:
If you think about these things too much you'll start to think that Rekka motions should stand for gyrating.
I always found rekka motions a bit silly - forcing a new motion after the initial one when there's only 1 possible follow-up seems odd when a simple button press, or keeping the button held down, should be enough to confirm you want the move to continue.
Maybe there are timing subtleties for some of these moves, but after playing a lot of Ivy in SC2, keeping a button held to decide how/if a move continues seemed like a great idea to me (sadly then they completely changed the way she plays in following games, did anyone find a reason to complain?...)
quote:
I think it's extremely likely that SF1 was the launching off point for any sort of special move that didn't just require a button press, but then once SFII was being developed with that same concept in mind, it likely became obvious to the programmers and designers that it couldn't always be a one to one correlation between how a move looks and what its motion is. The final step in this transition was at some point moves were added to the game where the motion was dictated by the kind of move it is. A case in point for this is the whole list of command throws that are initiated with a 360 + P. To me, you could argue that the move's appearance dictated the command type, but my guess is that once the spinning piledriver was given the 360 + P command (which made some sense given the way the move looks), any other command throw was then assigned the 360 + P.
I recall that one of the books Udon published about he history of SF, and it had this little bit of perspective on the days of SF1, when shooters were a more popular genre, and there it compared the use of specials moves to that of bombs in shoot-em-ups, where instead of managing a limited amount you have a motion to deal with.
I found that an interesting perspective - makes me think of Zangief and his 360 motion as a ship that's all about landing that one bomb that's the strongest in the game but his charges are more limited than everyone else's.
quote:
And then once SFII dictated the first few special inputs, they became part of the standard buildout for almost all fighting games, with the particular exception of SNK's fighters prior to the point when all the moves were 'standardized' to some extent. I'm forgetting exactly when this happened, but I think by KOFXI most of the hugely complicated supers and so on had been simplified.
KoF96 was the big motion change shift - on one hand I was mildly annoyed then they'd "capcomized" things, but the fact that supers standardized their motions a bit more and moves like Crack Shoot and Tiger Kick no longer had upward direction motion in them was a plus.
Another important landmark was Real Bout 2 - in that one Geese's Raising Storm started using a HaohShoKoKen motion.
quote:
On a related note, Loona mentioned Ryu's Hadoken animation from a martial arts perspective, and I was surprised to see (and surprised that I had never noticed) that even though he's rooting into his back leg as he thrusts forward with his palms he lifts up his rear heel. Is anybody here familiar enough with Shotokan Karate to comment about whether this would be typical for a strike like that (and this also assumes that there's a strike in Shotokan that's equivalent to the motion of throwing the hadoken, which may be assuming too much)? With the the kung fu I'm familiar with, in order to get any power from an equivalent strike, the back foot should be firmly rooted.
While karate tends to be more grounded, in boxing you usually keep a foot back with its heel off the floor for the sake of mobility - maybe it's something Ryu picked up after SF1 (Mike?), since back his foot seemed more grounded.
...!!
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| Maou 2875th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(6):Re(10):Re(10):A simple yet erotic move" , posted Wed 2 Sep 04:32:
quote:
So Mika's ass, Ryu's unlikely beefcake ascendance and DoA popularity contests... we're just playing fighting games for the sexual gratification, aren't we?
You better believe it. Or, more realistically, people like looking at aesthetically attractive things, and since fighting games basically amount to seeing the same thing over and over again (perhaps in tragic parallel to your superb Dan analysis), it may as well be appealing. The unintentionally but universally ugly characters and awful music accounted for 60% of why I didn't like SF IV.
Neogaf (and/or the English-speaking internet), of course, is a chucklefest at the moment with the usual confused "progressive" puritans (most of them men) unable to distinguish between sexuality and sexism with R. Mika, and merciless rebuttals by the rest. Sexy Ryu adds a wonderful wrinkle to the mix.
Edit:
殺意の波動に目覚めたリュウ→ヒゲに目覚めたリュウ
Evil Ryu→Sexy Ryu
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Wed 2 Sep 04:42] |
| Spoon 3070th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):A bear is in the audience" , posted Fri 2 Oct 07:03
It's worth considering that at the time of green hand's creation and through all of SFA, universal dashes were not a thing. Charlie could dash in SFA3, but that was something special to him.
So the green hand was in an awkward spot where it had to fulfill a number of things Gief needs:
- a move that can let him move a short distance quickly
- a move that defeats fireballs
- a move that is intimidating at a medium range
So the move often has a weird feel to it: how safe it is on block, the speed of it, how much hitstun it causes and how safe it is, when it can/can't eat fireballs, etc.
Alex, however, has two built-in things just because he's in SF3:
- forward dashing
- parry
So if you look at the flash chop, it can beat fireballs, but that's a fringe benefit of the move, and at long range is slower and requires more commitment than parry. The regular versions of it move him forwards a little, but that's also not the purpose of the move... and he has other moves that move him bigger distances faster. If Alex needs to move a short distance quickly, he does forward dash. So the flash chop is concentrated on being an intimidating close-to-medium move and combo filler. Because it doesn't need to contain a large amount of forward movement, some versions of it can be safer on block, or even allow for higher damage followups. The design needs it fulfills changed, and it could fulfill them better.
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| chazumaru 1564th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(6):A babe is in the audience" , posted Fri 2 Oct 13:28:
La Maria Azul! I am glad the guys behind RB2 now at Dimps are still able to hide RB2 stuff inside games to this day. The character looks fun to play, especially if she has some counter moves. I also appreciate the detail that her tits look as fake as most Rio de Janeiro girls' these days. That is serious commitment to a character's background info.
She talks about her dad in the short script shown in the cutscene. If Blanka is her dad (as suggested by the electricity), I really wonder who is the mother...
Zangi looks fine, although I am not sure why he screams "that's a portfolio!" as he performs his Ultra... Maybe he got rejected from L'Académie des Beaux-Arts. The design was quite safe, but after the backlash following Ken, who can blame them? He looks much better than Karin, at least. I like the comic relief of his animations but I would have appreciated a different take on the character, maybe Mecha Zangief as his default skin; after all, he already has the robotic spins with his new move. I also feel sorry for Alex, Hugo and everyone who believed this time the SF3 generation would receive a modicum of respect...
[edit] Here is a pasta of Famitsu's blunder.
Même Narumi est épatée !
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Fri 2 Oct 13:31] |
| Iggy 10001th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P - IGGY ARI !
| "Re(6):A bear is in the audience" , posted Fri 2 Oct 19:23
I have read nothing but praise (or at least curiosity) about Rashid, so I guess different corners of the Internet said different things?
(Not that I've looked everywhere. I avoid 2ch like the cesspool it was after Juri reveal, for example).
Neccali, I still don't know how he plays, even though he's been playable at every event. I guess rushdown, low defenses, and custom X-factor mode? Also, he's another character along with Dahlsim I will never be able to write properly on the first try ever. Hopefully it will be his only game.
Laura is "OK". She's not as great as Rashid, not as shruggable as Necalli, and better than the 4 new characters of SF4, so that's a good start. I guess I'm mostly disappointed they didn't just copy and paste Christie's moves from SFxT onto a new character, as she was one of the few good things in that game.
Let's see how she sounds and play.
I wonder why the sudden increase in character revelations? In a month, we had Rashid, Karin, Zangi and Laura... There's only 2 characters left, and 5 months (and 2 public betas) to go! What are they going to show in the meantime? Alternate costumes?
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| Just a Person 1681th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(7):A bear is in the audience" , posted Fri 2 Oct 22:18
I need to see Laura's trailer before I can judge her. From the screenshots, it's hard to define her: is Capoeira her fighting style? MMA? A variation of Ryu's style (since in one of the screenshots she seems to be throwing a fireball)? What is her personality: sassy, upbeat, friendly...?
I do like her design, though. And it's nice that unlike the other two newcomers, Laura actually seems to have a real-life fighting style (...or a mix of two or more of them).
quote:
I wonder why the sudden increase in character revelations? In a month, we had Rashid, Karin, Zangi and Laura... There's only 2 characters left, and 5 months (and 2 public betas) to go! What are they going to show in the meantime? Alternate costumes?
More stages, maybe? There aren't many of them so far. Although I don't think new stages are as interesting to most SF players as new characters.
Another possibility would be to show the final boss(es). If I'm not mistaken, Seth was shown some time before vanilla SFIV was released in the Arcades.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Gojira 3136th Post
PSN: Gojira_X
XBL: Gojiraaa
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Re(10):A babe is in the audience" , posted Sun 4 Oct 03:27
quote:
Does it mean that the game will have 19 characters, or that the one new character and the two returning ones are part of the total 16? If it's the second case, I'm worried that Ono/Capcom may have decided to remove Laura of the initial SFV cast and replace her with a returning character (right after Zangief was revealed, the cast would still have TWO new characters and only ONE returning fighter).No, they're not THAT stupid, and according to tweets of hints, Ono is still pressing on with Laura, though a little bit despondently due to feeling backstabbed. Zangief was never a replacement, as he was revealed at a Russian game event before Famitsu accidentally spilled the beans on Laura.
Just for the sake of argument, though, what if it really is Blanka? What if this leak was the most epic troll Ono could have orchestrated?
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| Just a Person 1685th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(2):Re(10):A babe is in the audience" , posted Sun 4 Oct 22:44
quote:
Don't worry, that's not how game development works.
quote:
Does it mean that the game will have 19 characters, or that the one new character and the two returning ones are part of the total 16? If it's the second case, I'm worried that Ono/Capcom may have decided to remove Laura of the initial SFV cast and replace her with a returning character (right after Zangief was revealed, the cast would still have TWO new characters and only ONE returning fighter).No, they're not THAT stupid, and according to tweets of hints, Ono is still pressing on with Laura, though a little bit despondently due to feeling backstabbed. Zangief was never a replacement, as he was revealed at a Russian game event before Famitsu accidentally spilled the beans on Laura.
Phew, that's a relief. Thanks for the explanation, guys!
quote:
Just for the sake of argument, though, what if it really is Blanka? What if this leak was the most epic troll Ono could have orchestrated?
That... wouldn't be too bad. Unlike what Ono seemed to think back in the SFIV development days, people in Brazil do like Blanka (even though he isn't played as much as Ryu, Ken or Akuma). But this troll would be a waste of what seems to be a promising new character.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| karasu 1591th Post
PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
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Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(3):F.A.N.G?" , posted Sun 6 Dec 08:10
quote:
F.A.N.G?
Didn't expect at all a character like him
I'm going to go out on a limb and confess that I quite like him, from his design down to his fighting style.
His design reminds me the Shadaloo henchmen that are pictured on the Shadaloo headquarters illustration from the early SFII days-- you know, the one with Ryu looking pained and Chun Li covering her mouth in anguish? He also has that goofy as hell early 90's game design flavor to him. As I'm writing this I realize I like him quite a bit. He's not too serious, but his design has a hook, unlike some of the SFIV characters who seemed really generic.
In terms of his fighting style, I like that he's got echoes of snake-style Kung Fu here and there, and the poison theme is a nice one.
Anyway, I've just been feeling from people's reactions elsewhere that are surprisingly negative that a lot of folks have forgotten how goofy some of the SFII characters seemed in '92, only to have their aesthetic cleaned up significantly by the Alpha/Zero/SFIII era.
Also, am I mistaken, or is Sagat's statue missing from the Shadaloo statue stage?
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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| Ishmael 5332th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):F.A.N.G?" , posted Sun 6 Dec 08:13
quote:
Mixed feelings for me... the play style looks great but I'm not really a fan of the character visually.
I already felt like Street Fighter V is having trouble creating a coherent aesthetic style and this guy gave me the biggest jolt yet of "that just doesn't look right". I wouldn't say that Street Fighter V has an overly realistic style, but this guy honestly looks like he stepped out of One Piece or something. Or, being a bit less charitable, like a rejected Guilty Gear character that Ishiwatari doodled in five minutes.
I think part of what I was responding to with the character was that he looks so radically different from the rest of the cast. SF characters have traditionally been big bodied. Big hands, big thighs, big Fred Flintstone feet... they were designed to convey mass and to make the impact of their attacks look more powerful. Fang, however, is absurdly thin. He shakes up the design status quo and is interesting because of that. Heck, just a few posts ago Nobi was complaining that the SF5 characters were too consistent in body shape. Well, Fang certainly isn't consistent. His look is also refreshingly odd. If asked to design a poison wielding character in Chinese clothing I suspect a lot of designers would create someone like Duo Lon. But, as you noted, Fang looks like he flapped his sleeves and flew in from an issue of One Piece. He's a broad, retro style caricature that SF has wallowed in since day one. So while I wasn't certain what to think of Fang when I first saw him the more I think about it the more I like him.
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| Mosquiton 2102th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):F.A.N.G?" , posted Sun 6 Dec 09:17:
quote:
this guy gave me the biggest jolt yet of "that just doesn't look right". You mean the fact the number 3 of an scientifically super advanced organization bent over conquering the world thinks the most threatening weapon available to him is a rake head loosely attached to his hand? Reading some reactions online made me wonder whether I have played the same series as some other people.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind characters getting being a bit silly or weird. I just feel like that shot looks like someone put action figures from two different toy lines next to each other.
It's the weird-looking head that bothers me most I think. Now, Birdie has a fat head, but this motherfucker's skull is so narrow that it makes me want to make sure my monitor is displaying the right aspect ratio.
GOING TO EDIT TOWN:
Maybe if this guy were less human looking I wouldn't feel this way. Like for instance a living putty organism like Twelve, or something. More than any other Street Fighter character this guy looks like a caricature to me. I might even like the design somewhere else (the arm-flapping critical art has a certain charm), but I am just not feeling it here.
I get the feeling if you slapped some different shaders on this 3D model, it would look like some kind of 3D Mugen.
FOR ISHMAEL:
Maybe I'm just in the mood to disagree with people (I should be working now) but:
quote:
SF characters have traditionally been big bodied. Big hands, big thighs, big Fred Flintstone feet... they were designed to convey mass and to make the impact of their attacks look more powerful. Fang, however, is absurdly thin. He shakes up the design status quo and is interesting because of that.
I dunno if I buy this. There are plenty of slender characters in SF. Remy, Fei Long, Yun/Yang (well, relatively speaking), Cammy, Elena, Sakura off the top of my head. And there are super tall/giant characters like Sagat, T. Hawk, Hugo. Although none as thin as A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. guy here, obviously.
If I could bring Necro into Street Fighter V by sacrificing both F.A.N.G. and Dhalsim on an altar, I would do it. I would let their digital blood flow, and Necali could lick it off the floor.
Anyway, stuff like this is almost entirely personal preference, right?
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Sun 6 Dec 10:31] |
| Just a Person 1702th Post
Tailored Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(5):F.A.N.G?" , posted Sun 6 Dec 23:20
quote:
Also, am I mistaken, or is Sagat's statue missing from the Shadaloo statue stage?
Presumably only characters in the game get statues. Dictator and Claw are already in the game, and Boxer is Season 1 DLC. Sagat isn't present, and thus doesn't get a statue.
Alternative logic is that Sagat is no longer associated with Shadoloo.
Your alternative logic is most likely the correct one. Canonically, the only game where Sagat was associated with Shadaloo was SF Alpha 3. Originally he was part of Shadaloo in SFII (and that was the reason why he was one of the bosses), but it was later retconned so that he was just another participant of the tournament. Notice how in SFIV and its upgrades, Sagat's story makes no mention of Shadaloo at all.
Since he left Shadaloo, Seth betrayed the organization (and is probably dead) and Juri likely won't accept to join the organization that killed her parents and destroyed one of her eyes, F.A.N.G. is probably filling the vacant spot.
I like his design, although I prefer Laura and Rashid. He's still more interesting than Necalli, though.
Now there is only the final boss missing, right? Unless he or she is one of the sixteen characters of the cast.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| Ishmael 5334th Post
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| "Fin F.A.N.G. Foom" , posted Mon 7 Dec 02:13
quote:
I dunno if I buy this. There are plenty of slender characters in SF. Remy, Fei Long, Yun/Yang (well, relatively speaking), Cammy, Elena, Sakura off the top of my head. And there are super tall/giant characters like Sagat, T. Hawk, Hugo. Although none as thin as A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. guy here, obviously.
Thanks to the electroshock therapy I forgot about Remy. But even he has massive hands and big boots with flared pants to emphasize his attacks. Will Fang rely on his giant sleeves to convey a sense of impact? I'm curious to find out.
Only in SF could you have people refer to the non-Alpha version of Dictator as "Thin Bison" since in any other situation the "Thin" version would be a monster of a man. In fighting games you either go big or you go home!
quote:
The name is quite unfortunate, though. Just now that the FGC managed to overcome the Balrog/Bison/Vega fiasco by giving them nicknames, here's a Fang to the other's Claw. It's like Capcom made its best to annoy everyone with this character.
My favorite corporate trolling was when illiterate Tekken fans were referring to Hwoarang as "Bob" so in T6 they gave those fans all the Bob they could handle.
quote:
Sagat, friend to children everywhere
It was way back in CvS2 that I knew that Sagat had been fully reformed. Kim and Chun-Li would yell at the evil characters but they didn't say anything to Sagat. I guess he's now like a somewhat reformed shonen villain who is now considered a worthy rival but is still a loner and a bit of a hard-ass.
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| shin ramberk 438th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(3):F.A.N.G?" , posted Tue 8 Dec 02:25
quote:
F.A.N.G?
Didn't expect at all a character like him
He already declared himself no.2 of Shadaloo (including stamping it on his chest?) and commissioned a giant statue of himself along with the rest of the kings? I like this guy already.
Mixed feelings for me... the play style looks great but I'm not really a fan of the character visually.
I already felt like Street Fighter V is having trouble creating a coherent aesthetic style and this guy gave me the biggest jolt yet of "that just doesn't look right". I wouldn't say that Street Fighter V has an overly realistic style, but this guy honestly looks like he stepped out of One Piece or something. Or, being a bit less charitable, like a rejected Guilty Gear character that Ishiwatari doodled in five minutes.
I just get the feeling like someone (Ono?) just isn't exercising enough creative discipline with the game. Like someone needs to be saying "No, this doesn't fit, let's try to look at the big picture here" but instead keeps saying "Hey, sure let's roll with this."
Just talking out of my ass obviously, but eh. I was hoping for more from the new characters overall.
I agree and disagree. On the one hand, Street Fighter has always had colorful, outlandish and stereotypical cartoony designs. On the other hand, this guy really pushes the envelope on being silly, eccentric and breaking conventions.
The other thing is that SFA3 started the path of really incorporating humor or lightheartedness (example: Blanka/Dan). SF4 had Elf, Rufus and a little bit of Hakan. In fiction, you need a balance of light and dark (drama and comedy), I believe in fighting games its the same. F.A.N.G. and Birdie continue the comedic tradition.
For F.A.N.G. and any of the other new characters to succeed I also think that SFV needs to find it's "theme." I was thinking about this and wondering how strongly "themed" were the other series.
SF2 - Truly "world warrior". Very iconic and international.
SFA - Rebirth, youth, prequel, shedding light on the past.
SFA2/A3 - Merging Final Fight into SF + fleshing out the SF mythos + adding side characters who give further depth to existing characters.
SF3-3S - Science fiction + kung fu + street brawlers
SF4 - Return to roots + bland buffet (include almost everyone back into the franchise)
SFV - Getting old + lost favorites + corruption/redemption?
Towards the end SFA3 was bland for me and I think it was because it was throwing everyone into the pot. Same with SF4/USF4. On the one hand, its awesome to have a huge cast. On the other hand, you lose a theme/voice to the game-- its just a huge soup with all your favorite ingredients but no specific flavor.
This is why I dug A1 and 3S so much. A1 really felt like you were telling the story from the beginning. Everything felt new and young and you uncovered old histories. With SF3/3S, it had a very good sci-fi + kung fu + brawler feel. No one in that series felt out of place.
The only theme I see with SFV right now is corruption/redemption. That mostly centers around Charlie. F.A.N.G. replacing Sagat could be part of that theme too.
We'll see! Necalli seems like he's going to be important to this series and he's a big question mark.
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| Maou 3002th Post
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(3):editions, editions, editions" , posted Sat 12 Dec 01:18
quote:
A bewildering number of SF5 products have been announced. Bengus and Masahiko Nakahira art abounds.
Even more gorgeous stuff (Nobi will approve!) on the e-Capcom sales page itself, which reminds me: who is the current character designer Kiki an alias for? Either way, Kiki's Hot (Ryu/Chun-li) edition cover is charming, and Kiki's art for the e-Capcom exclusive bonus alternate game cover inserts is...really weird! I wasn't keeping a tab on the page, but the text still says that the Kiki cover designs will be "shown soon" but the text may be outdated and those may be the finals...?! Vega's Guard, Mika's Iwashigahama Women's Pro Wrestling, and horror-style Rebirth of Nash, all in cubism.
It's pretty neat that they got Karin creator Nakahira doing the Karin comic for the artbook.
It's pretty useless to include that the deluxe Shadowloo training DVD given that super-fans are more likely to be the ones buying a game.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| badoor 452th Post
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| "Badoor's oft-delayed Rashid post" , posted Mon 14 Dec 22:34
So I wanted to wait till I could try Rashid out in the beta and get a more in-depth look to his personality and moveset before I could post this. Honestly, I felt like I didn't have much to say when he was revealed a few months ago. But now I feel like I have enough to justify writing about him. And so far he seems like a really fun simple straightforward character in the Beta, one I can see myself using alongside R. Mika and Nash.
Here's my Shaheen from Tekken 7 post. It's a good if not necessary preliminary read.
I think the best way to talk about any fighting game character is to talk about their appearance, moveset, and personality. A well designed character would probably have aspects from each of these categories reinforcing the other two. But first, a little intro about Rashid.
Rashid seems to be an Arab fighter, probably from one of the Arab Gulf "Khaleeji" countries. Unlike Tekken 7's Shaheen, who is specifically stated as Saudi, Capcom didn't specify Rashid's home country. He could be Emiraty, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Qatari, or Bahraini. Rashid (رشيد) means Righteous, Just, Wise, or Rational. It's definitely more of a common name than Shaheen (although Shaheen is still a cool name, especially since in fighting games it's cooler to have characters named after fierce animals). Incidentally, Rashid shares his name with Harun Al-Rashid, the prominent fifth Abbasid Caliphate in the late 8th Century who helped usher in the "Islamic Golden Age".
Appearance:
Rashid seems to be wearing the traditional Arabian head-garb, which goes by different names in the region, but I'll just call them what I do, which is Ghotrah (غترة), with the black hoop thing that holds it in place called Iqal (عقال). Ghotrahs are the white colored head-garb, as opposed to a Shimagh (شماغ)which are the red variant. Interestingly, the Iqal has antennas on them. Not sure what their purpose is (portable wifi hotspot?) but I suppose that fits with Rashid personality as a "technology-lover", along with the scouter google-glass from Dragon Ball Z. Also his Ghotrah is comically short. Ghotrahs usually spread till the mid-torso but the one he's wearing barely touches his shoulders, it looks like he's wearing a napkin on his head. You can of course fold it up to keep it shorter but Rashid has clearly not done that. It is just so comically short. However, I suppose the short ghotrah leaves some room for the high-tech backpack he's wearing. Backpacks and Ghotrahs do not work together at all because putting a backpack on might tug on the ghotrah and make it fall off. And putting the ghotrah on top of the backpack would look awkwards as hell, and you'd look like you've got a weird hump on your back. Concessions had to be made.
Rashid is also wearing a Karate-belt (or an Obi), not sure why though. There's no mention that he practices any sort of traditional martial arts. He seems to be a "Parkour-type" which is oddly becoming a common fighting style in fighting games (coincidentally, Shaheen seems to be a Parkour-type too). But I suppose flowy belts work great to illustrate animation, especially for someone with the power of the Wind.
Movelist:
Rashid's attacks are wind based. Wind, like all earth elements, are impartial. Wind can bring good things (like a gentle breeze, or clouds for rain) or bad things (like dust clouds). And as a culture living in the largest peninsula in the world, seafaring played an instrumental part in its history. And of course wind plays an important part in that. Incidentally, Harun al-Rashid's most famous quote is when he basically taunted the clouds floating over him one day and said (أيتها الغيوم إذهبي حيث شئتي فإنّ خراجك عائد إليّ), which is the equivalent of saying "Dear Clouds, you can travel to whichever parts you wish to go. But your extracts shall eventually return to me". It's Harun Al-Rashid boasting that even if the clouds didn't rain in his town, his empire is so vast that wherever these clouds would rain, the goods they produce will still return to him. I don't know if Capcom realized this connection when naming the character or not, but I'm feeling its just a coincidence, a neat one nonetheless.
Rashid also shares some common movement with KOF. He can run, roll, super jump, and even has guard cancel roll as a V-reversal. Sure they don't all work exactly like KOF. They're definitely attuned and balanced with SF's more grounded footsie style. I just find it peculiar that he has these moves given that KOF has a big scene here. Sure, Street Fighter, whether it's Street Fighter II on 16-bit consoles or Street Fighter 4, probably sold more in the Arab gulf region than KOF, but KOF historically has had a bigger "scene" than SF. It's only recently with the release of SF4 and the emergence of players like Latif that the SF scene as a scene grew (although Latif did start out as a Guilty Gear player first before transitioning into one of the best C. Viper players in the SF4 scene).
Personality:
This part is probably the least interesting. For whatever reason, Capcom seem to have made Rashid as blasé and boring of a character as possible. Apparently, he's like the eldest son of a old renowned family. He likes technology, which is obvious given the amount of wearable gadgetry he has on. He also likes movies. And he's searching for a missing friend of his who's gone missing, possibly kidnapped by Shadaloo. He's a bit laid-back and likes to make friends. And when he wins a fight, he exclaims "Yeah, 10 points". I guess it's all a game to him, something he does for fun, or at least he tries to have fun even in his important & possibly life-threatening quest to save his friend from Shadaloo. His personality is not super interesting stuff. And most of this info was just me copying his Capcom wiki entry.
Overall, I like Rashid. He's definitely not as great of a design as Shaheen (and that has nothing to do with the tendency for Tekken to have super cool sexy almost beauty model looking characters as opposed to SF's more goofy outlandish cartoonish cast). Shaheen felt much more "legitimate" and less "stereotypical". And that was very clear from the first reveal. Rashid definitely falls more towards the latter at first. But he grew on me later on, especially after I tried him out in the beta.
Thanks for reading this. I was hoping to get this out sooner but well at least I managed to post this before the game's out, yay.
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| nobinobita 1526th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):Badoor's oft-delayed Rashid post" , posted Tue 15 Dec 03:04
quote:
So I wanted to wait till I could try Rashid out in the beta and get a more in-depth look to his personality and moveset before I could post this. Honestly, I felt like I didn't have much to say when he was revealed a few months ago. But now I feel like I have enough to justify writing about him. And so far he seems like a really fun simple straightforward character in the Beta, one I can see myself using alongside R. Mika and Nash.
Here's my Shaheen from Tekken 7 post. It's a good if not necessary preliminary read.
I think the best way to talk about any fighting game character is to talk about their appearance, moveset, and personality. A well designed character would probably have aspects from each of these categories reinforcing the other two. But first, a little intro about Rashid.
Rashid seems to be an Arab fighter, probably from one of the Arab Gulf "Khaleeji" countries. Unlike Tekken 7's Shaheen, who is specifically stated as Saudi, Capcom didn't specify Rashid's home country. He could be Emiraty, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Qatari, or Bahraini. Rashid (رشيد) means Righteous, Just, Wise, or Rational. It's definitely more of a common name than Shaheen (although Shaheen is still a cool name, especially since in fighting games it's cooler to have characters named after fierce animals). Incidentally, Rashid shares his name with Harun Al-Rashid, the prominent fifth Abbasid Caliphat
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Thanks so much for your detailed impressions! I was wondering what someone familiar with Arabic culture thought of the character. Thanks for such a thorough description, even going as far as to identify his accoutrements.
I'm by no means an expert, but at first glance I thought his headdress looked weird. I thought maybe he was supposed to be Saudi, but a few minutes on google didn't yield any headdresses that look like his. As you pointed out his scarf is really really short. On top of that, the topmost part puffs out and over the Igal oddly. It looks almost like a chef's hat.
When I see stuff like this, I can't help but think the designer was just being lazy and didn't even bother to use google. They just made up something from their head. This can work out if you're Toriyama Akira and have internalized tens of thousands of distinct shapes from careful study and observations. But in this case it's just a formless puff born out of a lack of familiarity with any authentic details.
This design feels like something from an average art school student. It doesn't feel good enough to be in Street Fighter.
And I mean this from a general quality perspective. I'm not familiar with Arabic culture (but I can spot lazy generic shapes). I don't know or necessarily need the character to be realistic. Like Hakkan has tons of weird made up details. Yet people on this board from Turkey (hi Oguz!) have stated that he still comes across as surprisingly authentic and fun. I can say the same for past Thai and Chinese characters. I can't say the same for say, Fang.
Sorry for the negativity! (it's like a tractor beam, i keep pulling myself back into these threads!) Thanks so much for your insight. Also thanks again for that great writeup on Shaheen!
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| badoor 453th Post
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Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Badoor's oft-delayed Rashid post" , posted Tue 15 Dec 06:22
quote:
Interesting post, Badoor, thanks!
One thing that intrigues me and that you didn't mention is Rashid's weird, almost question mark shaped, beard. It's difficult to notice because it's black on black and anyway the clipping is terrible so it always fuses with his body, but you can see it here:
http://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2015/sep/12/rashids-official-screen-shots-street-fighter-5/2/
http://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2015/sep/12/rashids-official-screen-shots-street-fighter-5/1/
http://www.eventhubs.com/imagegallery/2015/sep/12/rashids-official-screen-shots-street-fighter-5/7/
Would you say there's any reason why he has this long and thin beard? Or is it just something they added like his belt to add a bit more movement around his face?
Oh wow, I never noticed that the beard was so long and thin and twirly before. I guess it looks like a mini-tornado maybe, to go along with the wind theme? Plus I suppose it supports his movement a little. I mean beards are very common around the region, even big ones. That one just looks weird.
Also I forgot to mention, Rashid has these sandals that looks like a boot from the side and behind, but are actually sandals. That's neat I suppose. It's no "Zubairiyah" though. Those things are super comfy and super sturdy.
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| Maou 3008th Post
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| "Re(3):Badoor's magnificent Rashid post" , posted Tue 15 Dec 06:55:
Badoor, this is really great and well-written, thank you! The Cafe remains educational, as usual, and doubly so since I had no idea there was a big Middle East fighting game scene until the last year. That al-Rashid quote is seriously badass. I remember your saying that Tekken's Shaheen looked a little too normal or accurate to real life, and thus less interesting, so maybe Rashid's stylization is a good counterpoint for that?
Nobi, it could be that I'm a sucker because after SFIV's horrendous visual design SFV actually looks acceptable to me, but Rashid's altered ghotrah headdress strikes me as being in the vein of the World Warriors' garb that is iconic but cartoonishly altered. I'm thinking of how (sadly) you're unlikely to ever see a qipao dress cut like Chun-li's in real life, or how no one would ever actually wear a karategi with the arms torn off like Ryu and Ken, yet it's clear in two seconds what the clothing is and where it represents. While I could do without Rashid's Vegeta glasses, when I saw him I immediately thought he was a person who's actually from somewhere, and not just a Viper-esque SNK fashion show, which I've mentioned has been my test for good Street Fighter design lately.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Tue 15 Dec 07:00] |
| badoor 454th Post
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| "Re(2):Badoor's oft-delayed Rashid post" , posted Tue 15 Dec 22:07
quote:
I'm by no means an expert, but at first glance I thought his headdress looked weird. I thought maybe he was supposed to be Saudi, but a few minutes on google didn't yield any headdresses that look like his. As you pointed out his scarf is really really short. On top of that, the topmost part puffs out and over the Igal oddly. It looks almost like a chef's hat.
When I see stuff like this, I can't help but think the designer was just being lazy and didn't even bother to use google. They just made up something from their head. This can work out if you're Toriyama Akira and have internalized tens of thousands of distinct shapes from careful study and observations. But in this case it's just a formless puff born out of a lack of familiarity with any authentic details.
Nobi you are very much correct. His Ghotrah does puff out like a chef hat, which is not something you wanna do when wearing one. But yeah, it does feel lazy. And there's reasons to support that. Harada asked for Middle Eastern fan input for Shaheen's design a few months before his design was finalized. And they got the input from fans online, and also from a Saudi Tekken player who was living in Japan at the time who met the design team. While Capcom's decision to make Rashid seems to not be one they intended to do originally, but it may be due to Harada suggesting to Ono to put in Arabic fighter. And once they did go through with the decision, the only consultancy they seem to get is from Pluto Games, which is merely a distributor of video games in the UAE that also helps to organize events for Capcom like expos and tournaments in the country and whatnot, which is like "really? you couldn't even ask fans for input online with votes or whatever? That's the best you could do?". It does feel lazy.
And even so, it shouldn't be that hard anyway. Obviously, there's a little bit of bias in me considering that I am part of the culture being depicted in these games, but I don't know if it is hard with the internet today allowing for a free open exchange of information. You can probably easily look up millions of photos and videos of Arabic people on Instagram or on Youtube and have a very good sense of the way they dress and look. I can sort of forgive the Avu's and the Maherl's at the time (although Maherl is awesome), but it shouldn't be that hard these days.
quote:
This design feels like something from an average art school student. It doesn't feel good enough to be in Street Fighter.
Yeah, now that you mention it, I think all the original SFV characters are so underwhelming. Although I do like some of the redesign's, specifically Dhalsim and M. Bison. And yet, Nash and Ken's new hair don't look good at all. I appreciate that they're trying though.
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| Maou 3012th Post
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| "Beta impressions" , posted Sat 19 Dec 17:44
Can you punch your way to glory? Longest Cafe thread ever (?) continues!
Who's been playing the beta? Playing being a relative term, of course. A friend and I attempted with two PC's side by side but couldn't figure out how to choose each other for a match, and I think we connected to...two online fights over 90 minutes? Oh well. Instead, we used training mode as our own personal versus mode. I'm sure Shoryuken and others have been talking about tech stuff in detail, so here are other angles:
Stages and People: The stages are actually delightful. Full of personality but not distracting. The Brazil level features a toucan constantly attempting to steal fruit from the merchant who's cheering for you. Sometimes he gets away with it, sometimes he gets caught! Everyone, of course, knows to keep a lookout for the venerable lizard in the New Zealand stage. I like the sheep who get riled up when you do.
Actually, these little details extend to the characters themselves, who not only look better than SFIV's off-model, slack-jawed troupe of moronic looking men and ugly women, they also have great individuality when they walk around (Birdie in particular) or stand idle. Nothing can save Necalli, but we already knew that.
Sound: Continuing the dubious tradition of SFIV, the Japanese and English voice actors both...really suck! Only Vegamoto Norio and his psycho powers can save us now, and he wasn't playable.
Musically, the game gets off on the wrong foot with stupid, blaring metal on the menu screen(this is most defintely not the Xrd Midnight Train we are riding) and unlistenable SFIV training grid stage, but the Lion King-esque New Zealand music is WONDERFUL. That already puts SFV's music roster at one (1) good song, far surpassing SFIV's zero (0). Kanzaki estate and Brazil have fun tunes, too.
Tactile Impressions: Laura is loads of fun to play! It feels great when her stuff connects. More generally, I enjoy the sense of impact. I believe Tobal 2 (maybe 1) was the very first to do this, but when an attack is blocked, the attacker's motion stops right there with a thud and retracts like in real life, rather than swinging "through" the opponent the way it has in just about every game from SFII to Soul Calibur. It doesn't slow the game down, and maybe it's just an audio effect that's tricking me, but it's a wonderful sensation.
Tekken Fighter V: I hadn't been expecting some of the "unique attacks" each character has. At first I thought these were just the names for normals+direction, or cancels, or even SF Zero 1's chain cancels, but these are something different. A small number of normals that would not typically cancel by Street Fighter design logic now do for each character, like a fierce punch into a fierce kick. Weird! It's sort of Namco-esque, a chain of attacks that aren't necessarily ascending in order, like in Tekken or Soul Calibur. Not enough of them to really confuse the game, but I wonder why they're here.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Professor 4705th Post
MMCafe Owner
     
| "Re(1):Beta impressions" , posted Sat 19 Dec 19:20:
Wow Badoor, thanks very much for the extremely detailed look into Rashid! I'm reading it together with the comprehensive post you've made earlier in the year on Shaheen to make comparisons.
FYI, Rashid's nationality is still printed as "????" on his official Japanese profile as well. He and Fang are the only two characters that have question marks printed on their nationality, perhaps due to storyline or perhaps due to Capcom playing safe in case they want to avoid getting accused for stereotyping.
Interestingly, Dictator, Necalli and Nash's nationality are printed as "unknown".
quote:
Who's been playing the beta? Playing being a relative term, of course. A friend and I attempted with two PC's side by side but couldn't figure out how to choose each other for a match, and I think we connected to...two online fights over 90 minutes?
I've played it just a little last night but hope to do more tonight. For some reason I haven't received the mail from SCE for additional codes to give out, which sort of sucks. I think there were server issues early on, which might've been the reason why you didn't get too many online connections.
Man, this Zangief is a total meathead. He's always been a meathead, but he's almost too comical this time!
There's theme music for each of the characters now! You can hear them when you get online matches, and also via the official site's roster page: http://www.capcom.co.jp/sfv/chara_nash.html
Or better yet, on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/user/JOSE62394/videos
[edit]
There's no way to connect to a friend in this beta as well.
[this message was edited by Professor on Sat 19 Dec 19:30] |
| Baines 460th Post
Gold Customer
| "Re(2):Beta impressions" , posted Sun 20 Dec 02:59
quote:
There's theme music for each of the characters now! You can hear them when you get online matches, and also via the official site's roster page:
Is it just me, or are these songs just not particularly good? I know people like to beat on SF4's music, but...
I think the clue, at least for me, was when I reached Necalli's music and found it to be the best of the bunch so far. Necalli's music isn't a remix.
That is my problem with the rest of the tracks. They all sound like overcomplicated fan remixes. It feels very much like listening to someone's "Game/Movie/etc OST Metalized/Rockified/whatever" YouTube playlist. The original songs were iconic, and immediately recognizable in part with their relative simplicity. They've been remixed with what seems to be a "more notes are always better" approach, and seemingly little concern for what made the original songs work. The results are overly homogeneous, lacking in personality, and only related to the original music because they blindly copied the base melody in parts.
I do wonder if that is only my opinion, though. I'm not against remixes. At the same time, I've listened to really popular remixes that I personally felt were awful...
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| Maou 3030th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Infinite road, infinite thread" , posted Sun 10 Jan 11:26
quote:
In addition to those two, there are also works by Keiki Kobayashi and Zac Zinger! he probably handled the majestic Kanzuki Estate theme.
Great info, Gojira! I would bet 1000000000000 zeni that Kobayashi did that magnificent track, and possibly the godly New Zealand stage, too. His continued compositions were the only bright spots during Soul Calibur's tragic decline. Sad and ironic that I would have to wait to re-encounter another perfect Soul Calibur track in... a Street Fighter game, but I have no complaints!
quote:
Hey, guys. I've been lurking for awhile and really enjoy the content posted here.
Welcome! Good question, even better username. If you'd been named directly for our Lord and Savio(u)r Skullomania, it might have been sacriligeous.
As for a direct-to-console fighter precedent, it's not good that the only major release I can think of is...Soul Calibur III.  Even a reverse console-to-arcade release afterwards couldn't save that sorry situation, both in terms of play quality and public attention. Even Skullgirls released in Japanese arcades first. Prof spends more times in arcades than I do, though, so I'd defer to him on whether an initial arcade release feels like it's required to build the serious level of play.
Is it consolation that no one played Third Strike in arcades (er, or anywhere) at its time of release? Serious players came back to it over time, or sustained it, and top-level play emerged in Japan regardless. Is the fighting game scene small but dedicated enough that it will produce serious players regardless of venue? It's perhaps worth noting that each pre-Ultra iteration of SFIV in Japan only sold between 110,000 and 150,000 for consoles. Was this so low because the "scene" was still in the arcade, and home players were scrubs? Or is the SFIV arcade scene the same group of people as the small cadre of home players? Capcom had better hope so, since there's still only 2.1 million PS4s in Japan as of last month. Lack of something equivalent "sales data" for arcades makes it really hard to know without talking to a lot of people in the business.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Doctrine Dark
2th Post
PSN: SP_Wesker215
XBL: SPWesker215
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New Customer
| "Re(1):Infinite road, infinite thread" , posted Sun 10 Jan 14:09:
Hey, thanks for the welcome and the reply, Maou. And yes, Skullomania would've been perfect, but he's a deity and I am not! Nice Kyle Hyde avatar!
I played the original Soul Calibur, but lost track of it beyond that. I read about Soul Calibur 3's Arcade version being a much better version than what was on PS2, but it sounds like it didn't make any difference.
The Third Strike part was surprising, since I was under the impression that Japan was playing it from the jump. I guess the longevity of the scene says a lot about the depth of the game.
I guess I'm just accustomed to seeing Street Fighter and most of Capcom's big fighting games in the Arcade before going to console. Their last few fighting games such as Marvel Vs Capcom 3 and Street Fighter X Tekken have went straight to console, though, so I shouldn't be too surprised.
Ono did say an Arcade release for Street Fighter V wasn't out of the question, but console is their main focus right now. Makes sense considering Sony's priority is selling PS4's rather than Arcade cabinets.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see once Street Fighter V is released. I really hope it's lack of an Arcade presence will not affect it in Japan. Lots of interesting information there that I was totally unaware of. Thanks, Maou.
[this message was edited by Doctrine Dark on Sun 10 Jan 14:10] |
| Professor 4720th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(1):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Sun 10 Jan 15:01:
quote:
Hey, guys. I've been lurking for awhile and really enjoy the content posted here.
However, I really would like to know what the consensus is on Street Fighter V lacking an Arcade release...and what it means for the scene in Japan. I've always found this to be an interesting topic given Street Fighter's overall history as an initial Arcade title.
I've seen some Japanese players say that the game will likely never reach the level of AE/Ultra because of this, but others seem to think SFV being console exclusive isn't such a big deal. Now there isn't much of an Arcade scene here in the US, but it seems like the scene is still fairly strong in Japan.
So does anyone believe the lack of an Arcade release will change the dynamics of how Street Fighter V is received in Japan? Or will the transition to console be a lot easier for the player-base?
Hi Doctorine Dark, and hope you enjoy the Cafe!
This is actually a topic I was talking over with a few people recently, though it wasn't specific to SFV. I might think of writing a column on this later.
Console-exclusive (or at least shifting focus) seems to be a trend for 2016 with two anticipated titles, SFV and KOF14, both taking the same road. Of course it wouldn't be too surprising if we learn next month that they're coming out for arcades as well, though that's something we'll just need to anticipate on. The current mainstream arcade boards simply don't have the power to run those two games, but who knows, maybe a new board will get announced at the Jaepo convention.
Going back on topic, I think if SFV went console-and-pc-exclusive as things currently look, it would very likely lower the overall skill level in Japan. Many arcade players generally don't have a console nor a high-spec PC to run SFV. Even if they do, there's also the point of the arcades having served as a lounge for communication and watching others play while waiting for your turn. You can still do similar things via online, but it's a lot more seamless and convenient to just hit the arcades. Given that many gamers are lazy, I have strong doubts that they'll take that extra effort if it's online.
Another point, a good chunk of sponsored players don't play at the arcades the way they used to. However, they get training parters from the arcade scene, so it can still heavily influence them if there isn't an arcade release.
Oh yeah just to add on, noone generally owns high-spec PCs in Japan except for a small minority of hardcore gamers. There's just no need for them and computer literacy has significantly dropped in recent years. Statistics say that 67% of the population owns a PC, but it doesn't take into account the age of the machines. Sales in early 2015 dropped by 40 percent and I'd imagine it won't rise up any time soon.
[this message was edited by Professor on Sun 10 Jan 17:57] |
| nobinobita 1538th Post
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Sun 10 Jan 15:06:
quote:
Hey, guys. I've been lurking for awhile and really enjoy the content posted here.
However, I really would like to know what the consensus is on Street Fighter V lacking an Arcade release...and what it means for the scene in Japan. I've always found this to be an interesting topic given Street Fighter's overall history as an initial Arcade title.
I've seen some Japanese players say that the game will likely never reach the level of AE/Ultra because of this, but others seem to think SFV being console exclusive isn't such a big deal. Now there isn't much of an Arcade scene here in the US, but it seems like the scene is still fairly strong in Japan.
So does anyone believe the lack of an Arcade release will change the dynamics of how Street Fighter V is received in Japan? Or will the transition to console be a lot easier for the player-base?
Street Fighter became the property of Capcom USA years ago. Since then the focus has always been on North America not Asia.
I think with SFV specifically they are aiming to create a game that's suitable for streaming live. That's why Sony paid them off to make it a Playstation console exclusive, Sony is trying to double down on live streaming of games.
This is a huge new avenue. Everywhere in the world right now, where kids used to be pacified by TV they are now glued to tablets and phones (even in super rural areas where they don't have running water or electricity--I've seen this in Asia and my friends have seen this throughout Africa and the Middle East, I imagine its the same in South America too). What are those kids watching? They are watching "lets play" videos.
Why? Because they are so easy to make. Unlike scripted shows, you can just play a video game for hours a day and kids are enthralled.
I've met kids who don't know a lick of English other than exclamations like "Oh my gawd!" and "don't forget to hit like" which they can say with perfect pronounciation.
Where am I going with this?
Right now people are largely focusing on PC games and mobile cos of the easy access. It's so easy to capture and upload video from them. Sony wants a slice of that pie, that's why the PS4 has a "share" button and why they are so focused on making sure people can share game content easily.
So what does this have to do with Street Fighter V?
Street Fighter used to be the biggest game in the world. It's the reason video game tournaments ever started. But today games like League of Legends are far far more popular. Capcom sees that. Sony sees that. So they are teaming up to try and make the game more relevant to a youthful audience today.
That means being on PC, focusing on online play and streaming. And making it a spectator sport.
Arcades are old news these days so they aren't even part of the picture if you're thinking globally (i hate this, but this is the hard truth). Also you can't optimise the game for local play anymore. Games are more sluggish now because they are designed from the start to compensate for lag. From a business perspective, a North American focused perspective (cos the world watches English language lets play videos and tournies) it just doesn't make sense to focus on the Japanese arcade scene at all.
Games have changed.
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Sun 10 Jan 15:07] |
| Spoon 3195th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(2):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Sun 10 Jan 16:17
quote:
Hey, guys. I've been lurking for awhile and really enjoy the content posted here.
However, I really would like to know what the consensus is on Street Fighter V lacking an Arcade release...and what it means for the scene in Japan. I've always found this to be an interesting topic given Street Fighter's overall history as an initial Arcade title.
I've seen some Japanese players say that the game will likely never reach the level of AE/Ultra because of this, but others seem to think SFV being console exclusive isn't such a big deal. Now there isn't much of an Arcade scene here in the US, but it seems like the scene is still fairly strong in Japan.
So does anyone believe the lack of an Arcade release will change the dynamics of how Street Fighter V is received in Japan? Or will the transition to console be a lot easier for the player-base?
Street Fighter became the property of Capcom USA years ago. Since then the focus has always been on North America not Asia.
I think with SFV specifically they are aiming to create a game that's suitable for streaming live. That's why Sony paid them off to make it a Playstation console exclusive, Sony is trying to double down on live streaming of games.
This is a huge new avenue. Everywhere in the world right now, where kids used to be pacified by TV they are now glued to tablets and phones (even in super rural areas where they don't have running water or electricity--I've seen this in Asia and my friends have seen
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
It's worth pointing out that the sluggishness of games is very much dependent on the design of the game. One of the huge giant benefits of FPS design in which character gameplay state seldom changes is that the game can be really very fast! Professional level 1v1 Quake matches are funny in that the players are so capable of moving quickly and aim so precisely that they will often stand still for seconds at a stretch to bait the other player's movement, and fight each other barely in sight because the players are just so lethal. But it is also the game where getting hit doesn't change the character's animation, and unless you flatout died from the hit, you are always capable of your regular actions. Rocket League is a game where minute changes of orientation and angle can have huge changes in outcome because the angle of a surface striking the ball determines the direction in which the ball travels. This needs to be consistent in both local and online play, and there are absolutely top level players that have uncanny levels of mastery of this.
But all that is exactly the opposite of the typical fighting game experience, where getting hit results in animation state change (e.g. character goes into a hit animation), character state change (e.g. while in a hit animation, the character cannot act or has a changed set of actions), and so the resolution of these interactions from each player's perspective needs to be both immediate and consistent. There's nothing quite as bad as the feeling that you have no control over what's happening. Predicted game state is honestly the real-life situation of the philosophy of reality: each player needs a view of the world, but they cannot have a perfect and immediate view of the world because of the delay from the server. So plenty of action games provide them with a predicted view of the world, and none of the players actually ever see ground truth nor the same thing that any other player sees.
Lag-tolerant game creation is absolutely not trivial from multiple perspectives of both design and engineering. In the absolute best case scenario, the player's game needs to be tolerant of 4 frames/updates of slowness, always: player makes an input (one update), player's input is received by server and handled (one update), server's response is received by player and handled (one update). In between two of those steps is network latency. It's quite a bit! In Street Fighter, because it is by nature a 1v1 game with no external players interfering, the player's sensitivity to slowness is further increased. Making a good online beat'em up with multiple players is quite challenging, because you want to have precise interactions but you also need to lag tolerant and you want the gameplay to not feel like a crapshoot when multiple players are together in a mosh. Having every attack cause hitstun and reel animations, however sharply handled, makes the game feel kind of crappy when 32 players are in a small space all throwing attacks.
Attacks in the Souls game are generally slow (especially compared to 2D games with fighting), but nobody who appreciates action gameplay would say that the gameplay is sluggish. It is absolutely the case that the difference between being in a hitstunned (or falling, or reeling, or...) state and not being in a hitstunned state is the difference between heaven and hell in that game, though! Sometimes I think the whole poise system existed partly to add an ingredient of "well, who knows what his poise is so who knows when he'll really get hitstunned anyway" to the game!
But it's also worth noting that in the Tekken series (perhaps HAYATO can speak to this!), attacks are... slow, by 2D fighting standards. Jabs (button 1) in Tekken some time ago were normalized to 10F startup. If you said to somebody that a jab in SF had 10F startup, you'd probably be asked if that's the worst character in the game! How slow is 10F startup? Dhalsim's standing fierce in USF4 has 10F startup. A jab from Yun in USF4 has 3-4F startup depending on whether you are close or far. ST has 4F latency from handling of input to the result being shown on the screen. The kinds of perceptual trickery needed to make action games work and "feel good" is honestly deserving of university treatises.
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| Spoon 3196th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(4):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Sun 10 Jan 22:41
quote:
I wonder if in the future someone can figure out how to make a fighting game that can have very long but engrossing matches. I was talking to my brother Andy about this and he reminded me that Bushido Blade fits that bill really well. Like a real life MMA or Boxing match. It could be over in a few seconds, or it could be a protracted war lasting half an hour. Something with that kind of pacing is more exciting to watch as an e-sport.
How terrible, you've touched a topic I can spout on about!
Counter-Strike has had a long and respected competitive scene, but CS:GO as a formal esport has been on the rise over the past years. It's worth noting that the round structure of matches has significant effects on the speed of matches, the initial conditions of matches, and on the tactics that a team adopts entering a round. For instance, on the very first round the teams are equally equipped, with the same amount of money and a default team pistol. As rounds progress, one team may lose big and be forced the play the next round with cheaper equipment while the other team has big rifles and whatnot, and the team with the equipment disadvantage has to fight in a different way with different overall goals for the next round or two to save up money ("eco rounds"). In a fashion more Mad Max than probably any post-apocalyptic game, there are times when a player with a good/expensive weapon will flee for the rest of the round, often deliberately giving up the round's objective, because the weapon is too valuable to give up.
Where this gets crazy compared to fighting games is the sheer number of rounds played in a match. Now, to start with, the standard round time in CSGO is 2 minutes, with the round time extending to the bomb timer once the bomb is planted (45s). This means that a round in CSGO, including the few seconds of buy time at the start of the round, lasts a maximum of 3 minutes. But how many rounds is the tournament standard? BEST OF THIRTY. That's right, a team needs to win FIFTEEN ROUNDS to win a match. Fifteen potentially 3 minute rounds, meaning a match that isn't ending in a 16-0 stomp will probably take one hour.
MOBAs have an in-game character progression element which sort of comes tied in with a natural arc to a game: there's the early phase where everyone is weak and needs to scrounge up money, a middle phase where people have gotten stronger and have access to their abilities and some equipment, and an ending phase where characters have gotten super-strong and a small number of climactic team confrontations will decide the game. CS:GO has the element of a team becoming rich then poor then rich, and the dynamic of that fluctuation is totally apart from MOBAs (there are like no MOBAs I can think of where your character will lose XP and level DOWN during the game. In DOTA2 you can lose money when you die, but that isn't the same as losing your equipment when you die).
A thing which makes real-life fights that last for many minutes compelling but is somewhat less so for fighting games is the test of endurance: just how long can these guys go for? In a reverse of the MOBAs, over a long match fighters get tired and weaker, but this exhaustion and desperation creates drama. People don't normally get KO'd in tennis, but watching an exhausted player battle through a long match is absolutely beloved by the public. Tired and injured fighters become more at risk of suddenly getting KO'd and the match ending, much like how the late-game MOBA teams can instantly ride a won teamfight into a won game. But consider also that both rounds and matches of competitive Smash Bros are infamously long, to the extent that I really don't enjoy watching it, but to the people that play it that's how it ought to be.
Generally speaking, video games love having KO conditions: first to X points, first to Y damage, etc. Most team sports don't have this. Epee fencing doesn't have this. Boxing, MMA, and tennis have this. Greco-roman wrestling has multiple rules for immediately ending rounds or even the match. Cloning fencing aside, it's worth considering what would be compelling game rules for a fighting-based video game that isn't KO based.
tl;dr Lengthy, environment-involving 1v1 matches might instead consider stuff like The End in MGS3 or FOB invasions in MGSV.
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| Ishmael 5361th Post
PSN: Ishmael26b
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Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(5):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Mon 11 Jan 09:44
Welcome Doctrine Dark!
As for the question at hand, I suspect that not having SF5 in the arcades my frustrate a few of the more traditional, old-school players. But, honestly, they must have known that this day was going to come at some point. SF has always been aimed at a worldwide audience it just happened that sending games out to arcades was a system that worked for both Japan and the rest of the world. Too bad game culture has changed radically over the years, and even in the time SF4 was released. With online play, streaming and the success of former arcade-only titles like MK it's not surprising that SF, KoF and the like finally moved away from arcades.
As for those players I mentioned earlier, the more I think about it probably the only ones that are going to be severely affected are the people who liked to hang out in arcades all night. The people who enjoy fighting games will figure out ways to play no matter what. Plus, I'm not certain it will even severely affect the appearance of new Japanese players. Plenty of people who became very, very good at SF4 had never really played before 2009. Odds are sooner or later some online warrior from Japan is going to make a splash in SF5. Arcades are fun but they aren't the only place that can incubate new players.
quote:
Pokkén
Since I have a better chance of playing Steel Battalion than Pokken I haven't really been following the game. Ugh, I didn't realize it was doing so poorly. It's odd to see that the arcade release probably ended up making the game worse. If this was the game that was supposed to get kids back into arcades that's a bad way to do it. It was probably also a mistake to go with something as old as Pokémon and not Yokai Watch but you work with what you have.
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| Loona 971th Post
PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet Regular Member++
| "Re(5):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Mon 11 Jan 10:23
quote:
I was thinking about this as well-- Aside from game sales, character merchandise, and possibly PPV, what other effective ways of monetizing could fighting games have potentials for? This is a topic I'm quite interested in!
Have stages where billboards and other surfaces can be rented out as ad space - maybe the training stage, or some of the free/default stages in the game.
It'd require the game to accept updates online to cover this, but the default ads could always be references to the developer/publisher or its recent releases.
A more static version already applies to more traditional sports games (and Buriki One, I think), so it's not hard to imagine games taking place in modern day setting using that.
And if it discourages the boring use of training stages in certain games, that's a nice bonus.
Then again, if this applied only to specific stages, I could imagine sponsors getting players to pick specific stages when it's their turn...
...!!
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| Iggy 10100th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P - IGGY ARI !
| "Re(6):Street Fighter V and the Arcade scene" , posted Mon 11 Jan 22:04
quote:
As for those players I mentioned earlier, the more I think about it probably the only ones that are going to be severely affected are the people who liked to hang out in arcades all night.
This is something the Heart of Gaming concept in London overcame: plenty of machines, mostly arcades but also consoles plugged on TV, all free to play against a tiny entrance fee.
Maybe it's more difficult to do in the US or Japan because of IP rights or fees or whatever? I haven't been there often, but I've heard hardcore players gathered there sometimes, and even casually, we've been there with a bunch of colleagues to play Mario Kart (on WiiU), Vampire (on an arcade machine) or P4U (on PS3) in the most casual way possible, eating snacks and shouting at each other.
It seems, in any case, much more viable as a business model than the traditional "pay a quarter and get destroyed by someone you don't know" one.
quote:
It was probably also a mistake to go with something as old as Pokémon and not Yokai Watch but you work with what you have.
It's actually the other way around: It's Pokémon that went to make the game, in the same way it's Level5 that went and had the Yokai Tsumutsumu game done.
Pokémon already has a big tournament thing going on with their videogame and TCG, so possibly they're trying to expand with a different genre/generation/public. Their tournament is bigger than Evo by a huge margin, but it remains to be seen if they'll manage to capture the FGC into Pokémon, or if it will merely remain the Pokémon addicts playing a different Pokémon game while playing their usual Pokémon games.
At least the Japanese FGC remains largely unimpressed.
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| Maou 3037th Post
PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Image Song: Man with a Mission - Survivor" , posted Wed 13 Jan 06:28
Nearing 400 posts?
YOU CAN'T GIVE IT UP! GO FOR BROKE!
Image song for SFV, "Survivor" by Man with a Mission, announced today, or maybe people already knew this? Their wolf-mask shtick is super-lame, but their existing music doesn't seem terrible. Nothing will ever surpass my unfairly-maligned favorite, The Door/Indestructible (aka the only redeeming music in SFIV), however.
Meanwhile, it's too bad about that Shinkiro cover, especially since we know that he's capable of some seriously cool SF art through his work on the Capcom vs. SNK games. On the plus side, at least it's not as unbearable as the Super SFIV AE cover. Twenty (!!!) years later, the profoundly beautiful SFZero 2 cover has yet to be topped, in my mind.
quote:
Similarly I think Necali would look great if he wasn't all the way in back.
I think Necalli would look great if he were so far in the back that he fell right out of the game.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| Spoon 3204th Post
Platinum Carpet V.I.P- Board Master
| "Re(1):Image Song: Man with a Mission - Surviv" , posted Wed 13 Jan 07:13
quote:
Nearing 400 posts?
YOU CAN'T GIVE IT UP! GO FOR BROKE!
Image song for SFV, "Survivor" by Man with a Mission, announced today, or maybe people already knew this? Their wolf-mask shtick is super-lame, but their existing music doesn't seem terrible. Nothing will ever surpass my unfairly-maligned favorite, The Door/Indestructible (aka the only redeeming music in SFIV), however.
Meanwhile, it's too bad about that Shinkiro cover, especially since we know that he's capable of some seriously cool SF art through his work on the Capcom vs. SNK games. On the plus side, at least it's not as unbearable as the Super SFIV AE cover. Twenty (!!!) years later, the profoundly beautiful SFZero 2 cover has yet to be topped, in my mind.
Similarly I think Necali would look great if he wasn't all the way in back. I think Necalli would look great if he were so far in the back that he fell right out of the game.
I don't think Sakura has ever been portrayed with such a serious expression since the SFA2 cover.
Meanwhile, from the news post from Professor, I never knew I wanted Tactics Ogre Chun Li. I hope more of the villains from SF get drawn by him! I associate him entirely with medieval fantasy, so it'd be nice to see his take on designs rooted in relatively more modern times. I imagine Rolento by him would look amazing.
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| karasu 1595th Post
PSN: robotchris
XBL: robotchris
Wii: n/a
Red Carpet V.I.P- Platinum Member
| "Re(1):Street Fighter V Shinkiro artwork" , posted Wed 13 Jan 12:58
quote:
As much as the Bengus artwork made me weep "why doesn't the game look like that?", the Shinkiro one makes me shrug "well, it's ok, I guess?"
I still have trouble to identify the guy with Capcom, more than 15 years after the fact. I didn't dislike his work on MvC3, that's as much as I can say.
Hey everybody! It's been a while.
Yes, the Shinkiro work is certainly underwhelming. I remember the old joke about his SNK works is that all of his people look like they're related to each other, and for years he seemed to be escaping that, but this... Yeowch, on top of the unimpressive character faces, they all look sculpted from plastic.
Then again, the SFV aesthetic is pretty hideous, so maybe Shinkiro is just following the design document?
You have to carefully reproduce the world of "Castlevania" in the solemn atmosphere.
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| Professor 4732th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(2):Street Fighter V Shinkiro artwork" , posted Thu 14 Jan 23:09
quote:
Yes, the Shinkiro work is certainly underwhelming. I remember the old joke about his SNK works is that all of his people look like they're related to each other, and for years he seemed to be escaping that, but this... Yeowch, on top of the unimpressive character faces, they all look sculpted from plastic.
Then again, the SFV aesthetic is pretty hideous, so maybe Shinkiro is just following the design document?
Despite the "okay-ness" with Shinkiro's cover, it still brings a weird warm feeling, sort of like finding 1980s Alf trading card packs from a garage sale. Oddly enough I've sound some in mint condition in Tokyo of all places.
On a slightly related news to what we were discussing about arcades not being relavent to the scene any more, almost 260 stores closed last year. That's quite a lot.
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| neo0r0chiaku
106th Post
PSN: n/a
XBL: IAMDC1
Wii: n/a
Regular Customer
| "Re(3):Street Fighter V Shinkiro artwork" , posted Fri 15 Jan 06:22:
quote:
Yes, the Shinkiro work is certainly underwhelming. I remember the old joke about his SNK works is that all of his people look like they're related to each other, and for years he seemed to be escaping that, but this... Yeowch, on top of the unimpressive character faces, they all look sculpted from plastic.
Then again, the SFV aesthetic is pretty hideous, so maybe Shinkiro is just following the design document?
Despite the "okay-ness" with Shinkiro's cover, it still brings a weird warm feeling, sort of like finding 1980s Alf trading card packs from a garage sale. Oddly enough I've sound some in mint condition in Tokyo of all places.
On a slightly related news to what we were discussing about arcades not being relavent to the scene any more, almost 260 stores closed last year. That's quite a lot.
What would be the best business solution that can help them operate at a steady pace in the future? Or is this a sign that nothing can be done to save arcade shops in general?
Long Live!
[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Fri 15 Jan 06:22] |
| Professor 4733th Post
MMCafe Owner
| "Re(4):Street Fighter V Shinkiro artwork" , posted Fri 15 Jan 16:40
quote:
On a slightly related news to what we were discussing about arcades not being relavent to the scene any more, almost 260 stores closed last year. That's quite a lot.
Those are really alarming figures... Do they refer to just Tokyo, or are they talking about Japan as a whole?
Grim as the situation is, I myself like to think that there is still a tiny ray of hope: VR technology. Maybe in a generation or two high-end VR devices would end up being too expensive for the regular consumer, so people wanting to enjoy a "good" VR experience would have to resort to specialized arcade parlors. Just like videogame aficionados had to hit the arcades in the 80s and 90s in order to see some truly impressive graphics, which were simply impossible to handle for their home machines. But that could just be the nostalgic arcade aficionado in me, who simply refuses to see arcades disappearing for good. Snif...
The figures are nationwide, not limited to Tokyo.
Yeah, it'd be cool to see expensive VR stuff in arcades! Sort of like those huge Gundam machines that are impossible for the home, but even better.
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but everyone at E3 was so terrified of Birdie they were afraid to push buttons. 
I was far more distracted by how unattractively flat-chested her SF4 model was despite her official stats being the same as SF2: B88 W58 H90. 
But, but the 3S soundtrack is such dross compared to the smooth grooves of the first two! "3S: as slow-paced as SFZero2 without the cheerfulness, as dull as the dumber SFZero3 tracks without the fun bass."
I've understood for quite a while that there was an entire history of Japanese popular music that was relatively unknown in the west and that was amazing-- Western artists here and there have been sampling some of it lately, but that's what, 30 years too late? I think you've fortunately/unfortunately opened my eyes to a bunch of music I can now obsess over. So... thanks! It's also encouraging to hear that for once these kinds of tracks are easily found.
was supposed to mimic his slashes for example. Oh the good old days. 
? It would also have the benefit of conveying the rapid movement and agility that he initially had back in SF2:WW. But if I had to guess the reason that he ended up as a charge character is because his wall jump move was probably considered way too powerful if he was able to initiate it without any sort of penalty. Since the SF programmers had to balance out a move that was not initially intended to be used by players everything about Vega was built around keeping his wall jump from being utterly ridiculous. Back then it may have made sense to occasionally stop Vega's offense by having him go into a charging squat but we're living in a post-Yun world so people are used to hyper aggressive characters. Now I'm hoping he stays as a motion character just because I want to see what a constantly moving Vega looks like. 
"Re(8):A babe is in the audience" , posted Sat 3 Oct 09:43:
sword in hand
