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| |  "Re(3):Fighting Game Thread Spring 2017: Guilt" , posted Wed 18 Jan 23:17  
quote:
I don't care much for Injustice (Captain Marvel was treated so much better in MKvsDC...), but if they make the Birds of Prey a thing in that, they better reference at least part of this.
LOL, that would be great! Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen...
By the way, it's interesting to see Catwoman in this video. Two years ago, I'd have no doubt that she would be in Injustice 2 (I mean, she's pretty much DC's iconic woman next to Wonder Woman and Lois Lane) - but now, both Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy seem to be more popular than her, so the chances aren't so great for this poor pussycat...
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| | "Re(5):Fighting Game Thread Spring 2017: Guilt" , posted Thu 19 Jan 23:35
As for the supposedly leaked list...
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
- Some of these names are confirmed as special skins (not actual characters), like John Stewart to Hal Jordan, Power Girl to Supergirl, and Zoom/Reverse Flash to Flash;
- Was it really necessary to have Captain Cold AND Mr. Freeze in the same game? Unless one of them is a special skin for the other (but unlike the cases above, I think their powers don't work quite the same way...);
- It's a shame if Raven and Batgirl are really removed from the roster (I was expecting to have the five most recognizable Teen Titans and the Birds of Prey duo in the game) - plus, I'd expect John Constantine to be in this game after his huge popularity boost and how he pretty much dominated the third year of the Injustice comic book... Doctor Occult would be cool, too, as he could be like a two-in-one fighter (switching his body and powers from Richard to Rose and vice-versa).
Overall, if this is really the remaining roster for Injustice 2, I must admit I liked the cast from the first game better. It's still quite a decent roster, though.
End of Spoiler
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| "Re(7):Fighting Game Thread Spring 2017: Guilt" , posted Tue 24 Jan 18:03
quote:
This probably shouldn't be listed under the "Spring 2017" fighting game thread, but Tekken 7 is finally getting a console release in June. That's a long ways off but it's going to take that long to save up enough money for the massive list of DLC that's going to be included.
It was nice to see that in the very least Eliza's character won't be lost forever with the now-defunct Tekken Revolutions, although I wonder if when she becomes available she'll be given any sort of ending or story bits.
I can't help but wonder though, between the Reppuken-ish special, Tekken 7's likely use of DLC down the line, Gouki's presence (in a plot-relevant manner to boot), and Harada's one-time mention of liking the idea of including Geese Howard in Tekken, if that particular inclusion might actually be possible, considering the elements in the game that already enable it, like its compliance with the use of projectiles...
...!!
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| | "Re(2):Re(10):Fighting Game Thread Spring 2017" , posted Tue 24 Jan 21:13
quote:
None of the Skullgirls devs are members of this board. I haven't had the opportunity to meet MikeZ yet, but I've met Alex twice thus far and a gang of crew including Persona and music director Vincent were here recently. They're all great!
Cool!
It took me a long time to be interested in Skullgirls, but after I did... wow, this may be the best new fighting game franchise in years! Everything in it is amazing, from the MvC-esque gameplay to the film noir visuals, the extremely detailed and engaging plot, the FANTASTIC soundtrack... and the unique characters, of course: even Fukua, who was conceived as a parody of Decapre's reveal, turned out to be unique on her own (in some aspects, perhaps the most unique character of the game).
It's great to see the developers getting their work recognized, to the point of being able to release the game in physical edition and outside the Western market. Hopefully this recognition will keep growing and allowing Skullgirls to get sequels and become the mainstream game franchise it deserves to be.
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| | "Re(3):TRAF - Trajes Fatais" , posted Sat 4 Feb 00:39
quote:
So Harley and Ivy are back together, eh? I wonder if the Birds of Prey duo (Batgirl and Black Canary) have any chance in Injustice 2 as well.
One down, two more to go.
YAY!! Now I hope Barbara Gordon is next (...am I too much of a hypocrite for not wanting this game to be full of Bat-characters yet cheering for Batgirl's and Nightwing's inclusion??). Oh yes, and Cyborg, Starfire and Raven (poor Beast Boy probably has no chance).
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
As for Huntress, the thing with her is that she hasn't been a BoP member for as long as the other two (if I'm not mistaken, since the DC New 52 rebooted the DC-verse history, she hasn't been a BoP member AT ALL). But if she's in Injustice 2, sure, I'll love it; the more, the merrier!
End of Spoiler
I can be any person in the world... maybe I'm this person right in front of you... maybe I'm not.
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| | "FINISH H... oops, wrong line (but kinda fits)" , posted Tue 7 Feb 23:05
quote:
I would prefer their Teen Titans Go versions, super deformed and cell-shaded!
...That would be quite cool, actually. Unfortunately, since NRS is developing this game, I doubt they would ever use funny, cell-shaded characters instead of "dark, edgy and realistic" ones.
---
In other news, Iron Galaxy finally decided to cater to part of the Killer Instinct fanbase and announced the inclusion of Ultimate Moves (which are kinda like MK's Fatalities, but much less gory). The first ones to get them are Jago, Thunder, Maya, TJ Combo and Tusk.
Overall, I like them, and it's cool that IG didn't follow NRS's gory style (Maya's Ultimate is the only one where I don't see the opponent having a chance to survive the final blow). The weird thing, though, is that they announced that only two more groups of five characters each will be getting Ultimates later on, which means that only 16 fighters of the entire roster will have them (Shadow Jago already had one ever since his inclusion).
It's a pity that the other ones won't get them - and it will be really frustrated if some of the guest characters are among the ones that WILL have Ultimates...
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "Re(5):FINISH H... oops, wrong line (but kinda" , posted Wed 8 Feb 22:51
quote:
I am super unimpressed. The original KI at least had impressively dorky ways to finish off your opponent (e.g., crushed by an arcade machine, death by boobs, Fulgore machine-gun-head ED-209 impersonation).
Actually, the "crushed by an arcade machine" finisher wasn't from KI, but from MK3 (Liu Kang's second Fatality, to be more specific). KI1 did have a "crushed by a falling automobile" finisher, though, while KI2 had a "crushed by a baby elephant" one and a "crushed by a meteor" one.
As for the "death by boobs"... I guess with Orchid's current outfit (chest plate, undershirt and possibly a bra), she would need a lot of time to be able to do it. Then again, this game has a naked lady in its roster (sure, it's Riptor, but still... she's at least more feminine than the MK 2011 and Injustice 1 women).
---
quote:
Which reminds me, have I used this thread to complain about the ongoing languishing of the Soul Calibur series? It looks like Namco keeps teasing the idea of it coming back with all these character polls online, but it reminds me tragically of Capcom's abusive relationship with Rockman more than anything else at this point.
...then again, I'm used to waiting, since the last good Soul Calibur (2) came out more than a decade ago!
Isn't Soul Calibur one of Bamco's best-selling series? Unless SFV underperformed in sales, I don't think the franchise would be shoved like Capcom did to Rockman.
But yes, the next game needs to be much, MUCH better.
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "Re(6):FINISH H... oops, wrong line (but kinda" , posted Thu 9 Feb 03:20
quote:
I am super unimpressed. The original KI at least had impressively dorky ways to finish off your opponent (e.g., crushed by an arcade machine, death by boobs, Fulgore machine-gun-head ED-209 impersonation).
Actually, the "crushed by an arcade machine" finisher wasn't from KI, but from MK3 (Liu Kang's second Fatality, to be more specific). KI1 did have a "crushed by a falling automobile" finisher, though, while KI2 had a "crushed by a baby elephant" one and a "crushed by a meteor" one.
Hah, honest mistake. I remember Jago's big pink car now. Back in the day, dropping massive objects on people was all the rage. Mariah also has the power.
/ / /
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| "Re(7):FINISH H... oops, wrong line (but kinda" , posted Thu 9 Feb 04:41
Thanks to Mosquiton's post I re-watched the original finishers from the KI arcade games. In isolation they were short and somewhat dumb. Perhaps I'm giving too much credit to the programmers but they come across like they are designed to be combo enders. If they came at the end of a ridiculously long attack string while the announcer screamed his fool head off they would be a part of something more exciting. The new finishers feel too long to be and cinematic to be part of the flow of a ending combo but don't have the budget or the crassness to pull off some of the more exquisite MK fatalities. I'll have to see how these are used in matches but at the moment these KI finishers feel like they are trapped in an odd middle ground.
quote:
Actually, the "crushed by an arcade machine" finisher wasn't from KI, but from MK3 (Liu Kang's second Fatality, to be more specific). KI1 did have a "crushed by a falling automobile" finisher, though, while KI2 had a "crushed by a baby elephant" one and a "crushed by a meteor" one.
Hah, honest mistake. I remember Jago's big pink car now. Back in the day, dropping massive objects on people was all the rage. Mariah also has the power.
What's odd is that when I was becoming reacquainted with the old KI games I was reminded that, for no good reason, TJ Combo throws a KI cabinet in his victory cinematic. Whether people are being crushed by arcade cabs or picking them up to prove their inhuman might those old crt holders were heavy!
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New Customer  | "Rage of the Dragons rights" , posted Wed 1 Mar 03:52:
With Noise Factory shutting down. I've been wondering for a long time at Twitter about who owns the rights of Rage of the Dragons.
As far as I know, Evoga has been long gone since 2004. ROTD was a result of Evoga failing to obtain the licensing rights of Double Dragon from Million.
I read somewhere that SNK has desires in reviving it. Also, I know Arc System Works currently own the rights of Double Dragon.
I speculated multiple scenarios depending who owns the rights of ROTD. If Arc has the rights, there is no problem in having all characters again. However, if SNK gets the rights, there might be some legal tango with ArcSys (who has Double Dragon right now), in order to avoid this, SNK might either drop (and promote Lynn Baker as the new protagonist) the Lewis Bros. and Abubo (and redesign Kang Jae Mo, who is based from Burnov) or give the legally questionable characters the Nameless treatment, unless SNK and ArcSys will make a deal.
AFAIK, the following ROTD characters are presumably safe to use if SNK acquires them: Lynn, Sonia, Pepe, Pupa, Radel, Annie, Oni, Cassandra, Alice, Elias, Mr. Jones, Kang (if redesigned) and Johann
I know, Evoga changed the surnames from Lee to Lewis (and Abobo to Abubo) to avoid legal tangos with Million back then after failing to obtain a license.
With Noise closing down, the question remains, Who has the real rights of Rage of the Dragons?
I guess, things will get more complicated now and ROTD fades into obscurity (I hope not).
Off-topic: I've been a lurker of MMCafe since when KOF 2003 was released. A former regular of SNK-Capcom.com and a regular of Cyberfanatix (which is down right now). Also, I spew random things at Twitter. (Also, a shell-shocked survivor from Imoya's pachinko years. This is why I am "antagonistic" against them in KOF XIV.)
This is my first time here in MMCafe (I registered here more than a week ago) and ironically, my first post is ROTD related rather than SNK/KOF.
"Lasciate ogne speranza"
[this message was edited by Yuki Yagami on Wed 1 Mar 04:09] |
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| "Re(1):Rage of the Dragons rights" , posted Wed 1 Mar 04:25:
quote:
With Noise Factory shutting down. I've been wondering for a long time at Twitter about who owns the rights of Rage of the Dragons.
As far as I know, Evoga has been long gone since 2004. ROTD was a result of Evoga failing to obtain the licensing rights of Double Dragon from Million.
I read somewhere that SNK has desires in reviving it. Also, I know Arc System Works currently own the rights of Double Dragon.
I speculated multiple scenarios depending who owns the rights of ROTD. If Arc has the rights, there is no problem in having all characters again. However, if SNK gets the rights, there might be some legal tango with ArcSys (who has Double Dragon right now), in order to avoid this, SNK might either drop (and promote Lynn Baker as the new protagonist) the Lewis Bros. and Abubo (and redesign Kang Jae Mo, who is based from Burnov) or give the legally questionable characters the Nameless treatment, unless SNK and ArcSys will make a deal.
AFAIK, the following ROTD characters are presumably safe to use if SNK acquires them: Lynn, Sonia, Pepe, Pupa, Radel, Annie, Oni, Cassandra, Alice, Elias, Mr. Jones, Kang (if redesigned) and Johann
I know, Evoga changed the surnames from Lee to Lewis (and Abobo to Abubo) to avoid legal tangos with Million back then after failing to obtain a license.
With Noise closing down, the question remains, Who has the real rights of Rage of the Dragons?
I guess, things will get more complicated now and ROTD fades into obscurity (I hope not).
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Hey Yuki, welcome to the cafe! I seen your stuff in Cyberfanatix so great work over there.
I believe if SNK wants to rerelease ROTD they could like they have done with other old Neo-Geo games lately. But as far as a new(sequel) game then they would have to drop the DD characters. On a good note, if they can acquire the other Non-DD characters and Power Instinct, that would open endless opportunities.
Long Live I AM!
[this message was edited by neo0r0chiaku on Wed 1 Mar 04:26] |
New Customer | "Re(4):Unholy Knight: The Darkness Hunter Preo" , posted Wed 1 Mar 19:10:
quote:
Hey Yuki, welcome to the cafe! I seen your stuff in Cyberfanatix so great work over there.
I believe if SNK wants to rerelease ROTD they could like they have done with other old Neo-Geo games lately. But as far as a new(sequel) game then they would have to drop the DD characters. On a good note, if they can acquire the other Non-DD characters and Power Instinct, that would open endless opportunities.
quote:
Welcome Yuki, glad to see you here ^_^ I'm a big fan of your humor on Twitter :D Knowing that Noise Factory is closing is sad to me...I love Sengoku 2001 to death, it's the game that makes me sad about the death of the beat'em up genre the most, because I think it showed us this kind of game still had potential. And the shutdown looks so sudden on top of that...sounds like a piece of Noise Factory's spirit will stay alive in the shop at least. I hope their IPs don't get forgotten or slaughtered.
quote:
Hi Yuki, welcome to the Cafe if I didn't greet you yet last month!
Thanks guys. It's an honor to be here.
neo0r0chiaku, I think Atlus still has the Power Instinct rights. The rights will just be "returned" to Atlus after Noise closes.
However, since Atlus and Arc System Works are buddies (thanks to the Persona Arena series), I can see that Atlus, if they have the desire to make a new sequel of Power Instinct, can just go to ArcSys for a new Power Instinct sequel instead.
UPDATE:
Talking about Dencyu and Power Instinct
My shot of understanding things: They are talking to Dencyu for their further plans. They also mention that Power Instinct is still Atlus' property.
"Lasciate ogne speranza"
[this message was edited by Yuki Yagami on Wed 1 Mar 20:10] |
| | "Capoeira, mystic arts and a katana spirit" , posted Fri 3 Mar 04:21
Three reveals in one day... wow!
- Tekken 7 gets Eddy Gordo, a great return. And his voice actor nailed the Portuguese lines!
- Injustice 2 gets Doctor Fate. Cool, I guess, but I'd rather see John Constantine (mystic powers + antihero attitude + British accent + normal clothes for a change) or Doctor Occult (he could work as a 2-in-1 character, switching place with Rose Psychic). Not a bad choice, though.
- and Killer Instinct gets... Shin Hisako. Yeah. Ironically, she seems to be very different than regular Hisako, and is the second character with a permanent Guardian (the spirit inside the katana she got - the first one was Kim Wu with her Dragon Spirit, by the way). Still a little frustrating, although at least the development team assured that the final Post-S3 character will be 100% new, unlike her or Kilgore.
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "Captain Cold" , posted Sun 9 Apr 01:50
quote:
• I had never heard of Captain Cold (has he ever fought Mr Freeze?) but damn, even this DC character is the opposite of cool.
Captain Cold was a major villain of The Flash, which goes some way to explaining how lackluster a character he is. Flash doesn't exactly have an impressive rogues gallery. Captain Cold, Captain Boomerang, Weather Wizard, The Fiddler, Pied Piper, Mirror Master...
Cold actually predates Mr. Freeze, but Mr. Freeze ended up eclipsing Captain Cold in popularity, except maybe in the hearts of Flash fans (or the anti-Batman audience).
I honestly lay the blame at the feet of Flash himself. (Well, themselves, since there have been multiple Flashes over the years.) As silly as Flash's rogues seem, their ideas aren't really much worse than things you can find in the top tiers of the galleries of other heroes. The tendency for Flash villains to look cheaply designed, like discount or knock-off villains, didn't help, but villains have been successfully reinvented and some famous ones were famous with cheap outfits. Some Flash villains also went on to find rather more fame once they got out of the Flash books.
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| "Re(5):SFV new costumes and classic Bison stag" , posted Wed 19 Apr 17:37
quote:
In non-SFV SF business, evidently
somebody took a look at the AI in SF2WW:
Okay, this gem brings me to ask a question I've had in my head for a long time...how do you develop a "scientific" approach to play a fighting game? How do you actually learn them? I know it's either a really dumb question or a huge one, but still, I've been wanting to ask the Cafe for ages.
I think I've tried just about anything in order to actually learn to play them, from playing single player at maximum difficulty to messing up with training dummy recording in titles that include more advanced training options, but I just can't seem to find that something that clicks with me so that I finally learn how to play a fighting game seriously.
I'm not asking for a cookbook, tutorage or anything like that, just looking for some basic suggestions I can follow in order to face the way to become a good player on my own. I just don't wanna surrender to the idea that fighting games may not be for me, as stubborn as it may sound.
Ore no...kachi da!!
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| | "Re(6):SFV new costumes and classic Bison stag" , posted Thu 20 Apr 02:42:
quote:
Okay, this gem brings me to ask a question I've had in my head for a long time...how do you develop a "scientific" approach to play a fighting game? How do you actually learn them? I know it's either a really dumb question or a huge one, but still, I've been wanting to ask the Cafe for ages.
Oh boy!
So this question has two pieces, one of which has been studied across the span of human civilization in the form of pedagogy: how do we effectively teach/learn?
However, that question comes with a critically important addition: how do we learn what's effective in a pursuit that is adversarial?
That second bit adds quite a bit of direction to the learning because there's the question of what is needed to win. The quantity of things to learn in some games is seemingly endless (Guilty Gear....), and a person who doesn't have good skills in trying to assess what is likely going to be useful can get quickly rabbit-holed into pursuing things that aren't so useful. Asking a person who is a newbie to a subject to create a syllabus for themselves is probably not going to go well, regardless.
The word "scientific" is a big piece of the answer to this, and it's important to look at the meaning of what "scientific" is apart from the artifice of what a lot of people think is "scientific". Some think that "being really technical and being able to use technical language" is "scientific", others think that "using fancy equipment and technology" makes something "scientific", and others still think that "scientific" must entail "research" (whatever that is!) and people with decades of experience in some arcane matter.
The heart of "scientific" is the cycle of idea->hypothesis->experiment->evaluation->idea.
More specifically, you:
- Have an idea ("That stupid long punch of Blanka is really annoying!")
- Create a question ("What beats that stupid long punch of Blanka?")
- Form a hypothesis ("There exists some normal move of my favourite character that will beat Blanka's stupid long punch.")
- Create a testable prediction ("IF Blanka's stupid long punch can be beaten by one of my favourite character's normals, then pressing one of my favourite character's normals at the range Blanka keeps punching me at will result in Blanka getting hit and not me")
- Create a consistently reproducible test ("I'm going to have Blanka positioned at exactly this spot in the training room, pressing the punch button at exactly this time, and I will record it. Then I'm going to have my character try to counter-hit his limb with my favourite normals")
- Record the results after a few trials ("What worked, what didn't, what sometimes did")
- And evaluate the results
Now that sounds SUPER LONG-WINDED. But you can even do this when playing real people! This leads towards a deliberately experimental playstyle in which you are consciously playing with an eye towards testing something. That something might just be "I wonder if I can consistently anti-air Ibuki's jumping attacks with Necro's d.MP in 3S" (answer: NO), but you have to be conscious of persistently trying that rather than just falling back on your established patterns of play. Deep down, you are still practicing the same fundamentals of asking questions and trying things, just in a less formal way. It's ok for science to be conducted in a slightly less formal way! Even the example I gave above is already pretty messy as a scientific procedure, because it contains a LOT of variables which we could isolate (e.g. timing of the button press of our normal move, range at which we press our normal, which normal we use, etc.), but the vitally important thing is the formulating of a hypothesis and testing it.
Being able to try something and see the results is critically important to learning. However, it isn't the only important thing to learning. Rote memorization is part of learning! Practice (which is partly a form of "testing") is part of learning! Consulting experts is part of learning! And so on.
This particular example sounds very confined and tactical ("How do I counter X with Y"), but this generalizes to many other things, and once you have a sense of what things generally do, you can develop heuristics to guide your action when faced with novel situations. To ground that, a beginner to KOF may need to discover for themselves that "when the enemy is at medium range pressing standing D with Yamazaki is usually a reliable choice, even against this character I've never played against before". Because fighting games present so many things to you at once, it can be very difficult to understand what you need to win, so constantly trying to understand what is really happening when you are playing and challenging it is essential to success.
Mechanical fluency is a fundamental part of real-time games. It is one of the "memorizations" of fighting games. If you haven't internalized the individual actions of the game to the extent that you need to deeply concentrate on doing them in order to do them, you do not yet have mechanical fluency. If you have to stop everything that you're doing and gather yourself in order to do a super (everybody knows this feeling!), then you do not yet have mechanical fluency with that super. If you have to stare at an English letter written in a normal typeface before you can recall what letter that is, you do not have fluency with that letter.
"Testing" as a word has a strongly negative connotation in English, because "testing" is associated with ascertaining performance. In the scientific method, "testing" is not about "My expected outcome from the hypothesis I proposed was right, so the test proves that I am smart" but rather "What did the experiment show with regards to the question?". This is the nature of "testing" and "experimentation".
Establishing pedagogy with respect to a particular game which then transfers to the greater domain of the genre or even other genres is not at all impossible: it's how top players from one game can quickly become top players in very different games. Kazunoko was a top Guilty Gear player for some time before he became a top SF4 player, Fuudo was a top Virtua Fighter player before becoming a top SF4 player, Ryan Hart was a top Tekken player, etc.
There's pretty much an endless amount that I could say about this, because education matters to me!
[this message was edited by Spoon on Thu 20 Apr 04:53] |
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| "Re(7):SFV new costumes and classic Bison stag" , posted Thu 20 Apr 13:35:
Great stuff from Prof and from Spoon! I have a more basic but similar answer: fighting the computer is mostly pointless on any difficulty other than as a training mode to make sure you can do your inputs consistently. The only point of fighting games, and incidentally the only way to get good at them, involves fighting other people and playing psychological games...this is like with any sport, where you get basic technical execution down and then you move into mind games. For a not particularly great player like me, this means that one-off online matches aren't that fun because I'm not sharp enough to get a feel for the opponent that quickly. Said mind games mean you don't NEED to (and probably shouldn't) be shooting for insane combos all the time when you can just fluster someone with trips and cross-ups and basic tools. This also takes you to the economy of movement, where you realize that, at least for SF, there's no need to use special moves all the time. For anti-air, don't miss a Shouryuuken when you could just do a crouching fierce, etc.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Thu 20 Apr 13:58] |
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| "Re(9):SFV new costumes and classic Bison stag" , posted Fri 21 Apr 10:27
quote:
The only point of fighting games is for entertainment and how you derive that sense of enjoyment is entirely up to you. It doesn't matter it's a sense of competition, an enjoyment of the artistic effort that went into the creation of the product, or simply fooling around against the computer that drives you to play, as long as you feel a sense of satisfaction they are all valid. There is no one way to play a game, because if there is I've been playing fighting games "wrong" for lo these many years.
That's true! I can't forget the one-player joys of SF Zero 3's World Tour Mode, or the bafflingly fun stage physics in Soul Calibur's Edgemaster adventures, or of course the essential importance of getting a Chocobo in Tobal 2's Quest Mode. Even if I don't find much joy in fighting a "hard" computer opponent because they just cheat and perform improbable blocks but cannot be mind-gamed, I definitely want all that one-player fun in there, including as a way to enjoy characters and backgrounds that I don't normally experience in two-player play, which is one reason why SFV is so frustrating. I still don't even know what it's really like to fight Fang or Claw. Oh well!
And more generally to your point, the visual and musical joy is a huge reason I play fighting games---there's a good reason that 50% of my dislike for Third Strike and SFIV comes from the abominable music, for instance.
But as for getting good, per Micky's original query, I'm not convinced that the CPU or Training Mode will take you very far beyond the basic foundation of always being able to do the move you want to do. There's next to nothing to be gained in terms of strategy, because computers don't behave like real opponents, can't be "psyched out," and play so mechanically that they're more likely to bring out bad habits in you as you try to get around their impossible blocks at high levels.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| "Re(10):SFV new costumes and classic Bison sta" , posted Fri 21 Apr 12:35:
Since I can't possibly top the meticulous process that Spoon correctly outlined above, I'll instead share a short anecdote which hopefully provides a bit of supplementary advice.
Around 1998-ish, I was a fairly average to below average competitor. I had been playing fighting games for a long time but couldn't really call myself "good" at them. I would play the CPU a lot and occasionally challenge or get challenged by people but often lose and generally have a hard time figuring out why. I treated them like I did any other kind of game, learned every detail of the engine in the games that interested me most, and was able to perform combos and do complicated motions without tasking myself much.
Then one day I was at the student union arcade at the college I was attending and ran into a guy there that was really good at Tekken Tag Tournament, which I was heavily into at the time. He challenged me, I lost, I challenged him back and I won, then he jumped back in and I lost 5 straight. After the fifth loss he asked me why I was blocking low so much, and I thought it was a weird question but I told him what I considered to be basic: I thought he was going to attack low those times. He then explained to me that (in TTT) you didn't need to block low that much because getting hit low often didn't lead to much damage, whereas most of the big damage comes from mid-level launchers and stuns. That was when I finally started to understand that there was more to being able to play a competitive game than taking the systems at face value. Even though systems are in place, imbalances in it have to be leveraged and the metagame develops off of that.
But that's a more specific thing, not necessarily the point of this story. It was how I learned it - not what I learned - that was important. After that the guy turned out to be a prominent member of the FGC community, and to make a long story short I ended up becoming a part of that community, which led to a lot more learning than I ever could have accomplished by myself. I kind of peaked back when SoulCalibur 2 was the new thing, but my successes in that game were something I could only have dreamed about if I hadn't ever joined the community.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that communities are an important catalyst to the learning process. Although the science begins with you, the research is faster alongside people who also want to learn. A good community helps accelerate the solving of problems and inspires you to think up and share new approaches. These days that might have to be limited to an online community for people in more isolated areas, but as long as the communication is there, a lot of learning can still happen. (I still recommend local communities over online ones, however, wherever possible.)
[this message was edited by Gojira on Fri 21 Apr 12:38] |
| | "Re(2):Re(10):SFV new costumes and classic Bis" , posted Sat 22 Apr 05:41
Taking a "scientific" approach to the game is really not essential to having fun with the game, unless you've reached a point in your experience with the game where being able to do certain things/win is starting to impede your ability to have fun. After all, unless you actually are a professional gamer of some kind, having fun is the MOST IMPORTANT THING!
I can have fun with fighting games I am TERRIBLE at (see: all 3D fighters), even though the nagging thought of "I wish I were better at this!" or "I wish I could do that cool combo" or "I wish I could EWGF" or "I wish I could throw escape because seriously how on earth does anybody do that so consistently in Tekken?!" is in the back of my head. I do think that that voice of needing to be better to enjoy yourself grows a bit the more similar a given game is to something you've played before, because then you have a better sense of the things you can't do well that matter to you. This sort of awareness isn't unique to games, either: it's a human phenomenon.
Understanding what makes the game tick and what is fundamentally fun about a game can open really interesting avenues for introducing the game to other people who aren't familiar with the game, though. One time I had two guys who are pretty hardcore gamers, but don't know much about SF beyond how to press buttons, block, and jump. So I sat them both down with USF4, and made them both pick Hugo, and explained how to throw and focus attack, and that was it. They had a blast. I honestly think as far as being newbies go, it's actually much more fun doing that than doing Ryu vs Ryu. There's no frustration at dealing with fireballs, or not being able to do fireballs, or not being able to do much damage with each hit, or having stubby reach with limbs, or the characters moving too fast. Since they both played Souls games, they could appreciate the pokey gameplay.
The first fighting game that I think I really got technical with was One Must Fall 2097, where I discovered lengthy combos on my own. But I definitely didn't have a PvP mindset playing that game, because 100% of my time spent playing it was with its single player modes! It was great!
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
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| "Re(2):Re(10):SFV new costumes and classic Bis" , posted Sat 22 Apr 13:03
quote:
Learning to adapt quickly to how an opponent is using the tools at their disposal is only something you're going to learn from playing against other players.
Yep! In other words, Micky is just going to have to bend time so he can join semi-regular SFV lagfests, KOFXIV lagfests, etc., barring some local rivals.
quote:
Also, the line of thought that fighting games are only for 1P vs. 2P is a windmill I often tilt at so I ended up going off on a tangent that distracted from the topic at hand. Sorry about that.
Oh, I think you're entirely right! While 2P is what gives fighting games their lasting power, at least for me, the amount of care put into 1P and into the art/music are a decent predictor of how well-made the 2P experience is going to be, too.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(3):Re(10):SFV new costumes and classic Bis" , posted Sun 23 Apr 18:21
quote:
While 2P is what gives fighting games their lasting power, at least for me, the amount of care put into 1P and into the art/music are a decent predictor of how well-made the 2P experience is going to be, too.
For some reason this reminded me of the tragedy that was Fatal Fury 3-- Great art, great music, great 1P experience, utterly unplayable 2P versus.
 < Kobe Quake
About getting better at fighting games,"Adapting" is easier said than done and it comes only after having a grasp over your character's controls. If you want to get better at fighting games, first and foremost you need to be able to control your character. That includes being able to do hit confirms, combos, and moving around.
For example if you're playing KOF, you need to know how to use the 4 different jumps, AB roll, CD, and be able to actually use them at will. With Arcsys games, the equivilant would be like airdashing and using the various jump movements. Learning the pros and cons of them can come later-- you need to be able to do them without having to think about it, that's the bottom line.
After all, if you need to think about how to control your character in the middle of your match, that leaves you very little leeway to think about your opponent's movements and how to adapt!
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| "MvC Infinite story trailer" , posted Wed 26 Apr 00:43
Link Here
No gameplay unfortunately.
Confirms
Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Sigma(DLC), Hawkeye, Rocket Raccoon, Strider, Chris Redfield, Chun-Li are in the game.
I am curious if Ultron will get his own unique character.
I am disappointed they gave Rocket his MCU appearance and voice, but it is not surprising since outside his first few appearances he wasn't written with an accent.
There is also going to be a $200 collectors edition
Maybe I will pick that up when it goes on clearance for under $100.
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| "Re(3):MvC Infinite story trailer" , posted Wed 26 Apr 17:46
quote:
Link Here
Thanks for the link!
So it's slated for September.. wow, a lot earlier than I expected. The second trailer looks quite... humm, Holywood.
Does anyone else feel like Capcom's fighting games are pretty much 100% tailored for the contemporary North American market these days?
LET THE HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU How do you all feel about that?
If they were tailored to any existing market I'm not sure Carol Danvers would be part of the cast, that just seems like something Marvel wants to make a thing due to not fully owning the better alternatives nowadays, but I doubt anyone will actually care before her movie comes along, and who knows how that might turn out... Heh, maybe Kamala will make it in and make up for it - I miss auto-stretch Dhalsim gameplay, and she might work similarly.
I actually have no problem with simplified MK-style commands, they fit the fast pace of the MvC games, and frankly over the years I've done a lot better at combos that use that kind of motion.
Boring cast so far, although I guess Mega Man fans must feel some relief, and the proportion of revealed characters to announced DLC ones this early on is ridiculous...
I guess I can still hope for something like the return of Captain Commando to the series, or a stage mashing together the likes of Cyberbots, Monster Hunter, Sentinels and Fin Fang Foom...
...!!
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| | "Re(4):MvC Infinite story trailer" , posted Wed 26 Apr 18:16:
quote:
Link Here
Thanks for the link!
So it's slated for September.. wow, a lot earlier than I expected. The second trailer looks quite... humm, Holywood.
Does anyone else feel like Capcom's fighting games are pretty much 100% tailored for the contemporary North American market these days?
LET THE HATE FLOW THROUGH YOU How do you all feel about that?
If they were tailored to any existing market I'm not sure Carol Danvers would be part of the cast, that just seems like something Marvel wants to make a thing due to not fully owning the better alternatives nowadays, but I doubt anyone will actually care before her movie comes along, and who knows how that might turn out... Heh, maybe Kamala will make it in and make up for it - I miss auto-stretch Dhalsim gameplay, and she might work similarly.
I actually have no problem with simplified MK-style commands, they fit the fast pace of the MvC games, and frankly over the years I've done a lot better at combos that use that kind of motion.
Boring cast so far, although I guess Mega Man fans must feel some relief, and the proportion of revealed characters to announced DLC ones this early on is ridiculous...
I guess I can still hope for something like the return of Captain Commando to the series, or a stage mashing together the likes of Cyberbots, Monster Hunter, Sentinels and Fin Fang Foom...
Apologies for my dumb cynicism just now. The axe I am grinding is mostly with the visuals.
From a gameplay perspective the Marvel games have always been more popular in North America, so that makes perfect sense to tune accordingly. And Marvel IS an American company.
However, a huge part of the appeal of the past games was how they filtered all that Marvel goodness through a distinctly Capcom filter.
They did such a wonderful job going through the history of each character in the comics and then boiling them down to their essence. Bengus' Marvel art is in my mind, the definitve version of each character that he drew. It's so good that it circled back around and had a deep influence on how Marvel artists approached the characters. Bengus is a big deal in world of Super Hero artists! So many notable artists admire him!
This new game just looks so ... generic. Even MvC3 at least attempted for better or worse to ape the look of contemporary Marvel comics and their coloring and it stood out because of that. This game just looks like how a contemporary game is suppoed to look. It doesn't even look like a comic book.
I guess they're probably more influenced by the movies now anyhow.
Thank you for your thoughtful answer! I will concede that maybe the simplified controls do fit the fast pace of MvC, but I feel they deemphasize the importance of the inputs FEELING good and matching the momentum of the move you are performing. I feel like with game controls, the way they feel in the moment is more important than how quickly they get you to completing a goal (though that must be considered too of course). Otherwise why not just have all specials be relegated to streamlined flicks of the right analog stick?
I guess it's like how BMW finally caved in to putting cup holders in their cars after decades of insisting that they're unnecessary because they impede the enjoyment of a pure driving experience. This just isn't what the public wants or values anymore.
I mean, they'll probably add the "classic" controls back do to fan backlash. But who will do a D,F,DF if you can save yourself a step and just do DD?
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 26 Apr 18:19] |
| | "Re(5):MvC Infinite story trailer" , posted Wed 26 Apr 19:01
I think it's smart to start by announcing the obvious characters in bunch, so they can focus later on the new/left-field characters. I mean, did anyone expect Hulk, Chun-li or Thor NOT to be in the game? Especially if they can lift the animations from MvC3? At least, now, they're out of the way. Hopefully, many characters from 3 can be transposed in the new system as well so they can focus costs on the others.
As for the esthetics... It's a Marvel game, so Americanization was a given. For the record, I always found MvC3 quite ugly, and MvC2 was not better than upper-crust-Mugen, so I don't feel like we've lost much here. My only expectations are for the animations to be as good as MvC3, and then we'll see.
Also, Marvel as a company is not the same as in the 90 (or even when MvC3 was conceived). It's Disney now, and working with Disney is a whole different beast (if only because, probably, you don't work with Disney, you work for Disney). I guess Disney doesn't really care about depth or anything else, they mostly care about the 5 or 6 million copies Injustice sold. And you probably don't sell that much without sacrificing everything that might scare instant-gratification-addicted mobile game users.
The input change doesn't sit right with me, but then every single "versus Capcom" game dumbed down the inputs: from 6 buttons to 4+2, to 4 for TvC, to 3+1+2...
"D,D" input scream of Mortal Kombat, but the Persona fighting game had plenty of simplified inputs and was very interesting to play (and many other niche games as well... didn't Melty Blood use those?).
The worst thing that could happen to the game would be an instant-combo system... but then, Persona had that too. Who knows how the game will turn out. Maybe I'll be able to play it with my partner who was always incapable of doing quarter circles consistently.
Of course, I agree with Nobi that it's sad our beloved Capcom characters have to compromise in such a game... but let's be realistic for a moment: they simply piggy-back on Marvel's success, and we should even be grateful they are allowed to appear in a game of this budget. TvC was nice and all (on top of being a very good game), but it didn't even manage to have 15 Capcom characters. MvC is literally the last chance for Amaterasu, Arthur, X, Gene, Devilot or the whole Vampire cast to ever show up in anything with a decent budget. It's already hard to believe Disney accepted that the game would be MvC and not a full-on Marvel game (actually, maybe it would have be the better idea: simplified Marvel-only game, then 2 years later MvC game with these 3D models reused and more complex gameplay.... oh, well).
As for the reverse... I doubt a Capcom-only crossover would receive a bigger budget than CFJ, so let's not go there.
Yes, it could be better. But it could also be so much worse.
(I may sound jaded, sorry. It's just the French elections that have left me a bit hollow inside).
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| "Re(6):MvC Infinite story trailer" , posted Wed 26 Apr 21:33
Yuuuuuck. Even Nobi will agree that SFV Chun-li looks very pretty compared to this thing. The whole enterprise sure is...plastic-looking, like Tatsunoko vs. Capcom (I'm open to being convinced that game was pretty, however). I never knew that an ugly game like Marvel 3 would come out having more style than its successor.
I completely agree that the Bengus "filter" added so much in the old days. ONSY's ghost will kill me, but I never had any real contact with American comics except through these games, and he actually made these dopey, childish designs look interesting.
Iggy's sense of working "for" Disney is great, and surely it's true. The dominance also likely reflects a position of weakness for Capcom regardless of its counterpart: from Rockman to Vampire to Makaimura, all of their classic series have been left out to dry anyway and thus do not carry enough cachet to dictacte the environment in which they operate.
Simplified controls are for fools, but a slight sense of perspective: our one true holy book, Justice Gakuen, also had universal quarter circle controls to make it friendly to everyone.
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
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| | "Re(6):MvC Infinite story trailer" , posted Wed 26 Apr 22:41
quote:
Also, Marvel as a company is not the same as in the 90 (or even when MvC3 was conceived). It's Disney now, and working with Disney is a whole different beast (if only because, probably, you don't work with Disney, you work for Disney). I guess Disney doesn't really care about depth or anything else, they mostly care about the 5 or 6 million copies Injustice sold. And you probably don't sell that much without sacrificing everything that might scare instant-gratification-addicted mobile game users.
Is it even possible for MvC:I to sell that much?? I mean, NRS may be unbeatable nowadays when it comes to sales...
Anyway, great analysis! Hopefully if this game is successful, it could open the doors for bolder Capcom projects (a Street Fighter X DarkStalkers game could be great, since it seems DS has no chance of geting a game of its own in the near future).
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| "MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Thu 27 Apr 00:08
Link Here
Get to see plenty of things, but nothing too fancy.
The reused animations are very obvious, especially for Chris and Hulk.
Some characters got some new supers. New Level 3 for Hawkeye and Thor. Chun-Li got Sennkuu Kyaku back.
It seems like most thing hit Off The Ground (OTG) now, which will allow for some more combos.
Power Stone basic ability appears to create a wall bounce. Space Gem super puts you in a prism prison.
It appears you can tag in while simultaneously doing a special move to create some mix-ups. Which I think is something you could do in MK9's tag mode.
The KO animation reminds me of X-Men Vs Street Fighter where it would slow down and focus on the downed opponent. You just don't bounce off screen.
quote:
Also, Marvel as a company is not the same as in the 90 (or even when MvC3 was conceived). It's Disney now, and working with Disney is a whole different beast (if only because, probably, you don't work with Disney, you work for Disney). I guess Disney doesn't really care about depth or anything else, they mostly care about the 5 or 6 million copies Injustice sold. And you probably don't sell that much without sacrificing everything that might scare instant-gratification-addicted mobile game users.
Is it even possible for MvC:I to sell that much?? I mean, NRS may be unbeatable nowadays when it comes to sales...
Anyway, great analysis! Hopefully if this game is successful, it could open the doors for bolder Capcom projects (a Street Fighter X DarkStalkers game could be great, since it seems DS has no chance of geting a game of its own in the near future).
The 5-6 million mark will not be reached without GREAT single player content. Although I don't like playing Netherrealm games online, the single player content is great. The presentation is also something that attracts more eyes. The stages in MVCI are so LIFELESS. Unless something changes, we are going to get boring cut scenes with those stages in story mode.
Netherrealm also knows how to play up nostalgia more. Capcom feels their designs are iconic(and they are) but MK characters change overtime and Netherrealm sells the "classic" costume to the mainstream. I main Zangief in SFV and I feel no desire to buy that premium costume. Hell, it isn't even unique to Zangeif since it is based on some mobile character.
The dumbing down of controls is one of the last things they should have done when trying to appeal to the mainstream. High level MKX is very intimidating. You have to react to high-low mixups very rapidly like it is classic MvC game.
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| | "Re(3):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Thu 27 Apr 17:49
quote:
So they are dumbing down controls in order to appeal to more casual gamers, but at the same time are they not risking to piss off a lot more players?
I don't think that removing DPs will be enough to "convert" people that find fighting games difficult, are they going to add easy 1-button combos, supers, and whatever?
I don't like how this series has evolved.
Do note that the DP thing has not been confirmed yet as far as I know. The 1-button combo has, I believe.
It's also far too early to decide whether the dumbing-down of controls will result in a dumbing-down of gameplay. Case in point: Persona.
Also, it's noteworthy that the game seems to have a "best-out-of-3" round system. Intrigued to see whether universal air-dashes will remain this time. Chris also has ammunitions, so they are clearly leveraging the design space left empty by the assists to make characters more distinct. Ultron having his own assist clearly goes in that direction, and I'm looking forward for retooled Naruhodo or Captain Commando that could take advantage of more refined self-assists.
The gem system is certainly a much better addition than X-Factor was and I'm quite looking forward to a new jab at the ISM system (but with patches this time, so we don't end up with one overtly broken ISM).
What is the last game that had such a system (if you don't count rehashes like KOF98UM)? Did CFJ have one?
The only thing that concerns me with this artstyle is whether they try to be less cartoony, which could impede the chances of the likes of Viewtiful Joe or Amaterasu to come back. Also, Naruhodo is going to look like a guy in a Naruhodo cosplay.
I've seen people hate the backgrounds, but most of MvC3's competitive life has been spent on that drab snow stage for framerate and legibility, so again, Capcom cannot do anything right.
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| | "Re(2):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Thu 27 Apr 23:21:
quote:
Hmm, I'm still not certain about the visuals. Still, MSHvSF is the ugliest thing ever made by human hands and MvC2 is, as Iggy noted, a MUGEN stew of leftovers so on the sliding scale of vs games this doesn't look half bad.
Yo, MSHvSF has some great sprites and animation. I think you're going way too far here.
I am... not super excited about Infinite. As someone who really didn't even play that much MvC3, I need to be wary of falling off fighting games altogether. I blame Capcom's shitty support of SF5. Awful matchmaking, rampant rage quitting... the phrase "I'm getting too old for this shit" just keeps coming to mind.
Edit: Health seems super high, making damage feel super low. A character will land their Level 3 supers, say their "Wow, I just totally kicked your ass and this match is as good as over" quote, and the opponent still has like 50% life left. The damage payoff of the basic supers barely seems worth the time it takes for the animations to play out. Is this just me? I realize that they don't want matches to play out too quickly when it's just 2 on 2, but I'm feeling more "durability" than "power" with these matches.
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Thu 27 Apr 23:40] |
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| "Re(3):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Thu 27 Apr 23:58
quote:
Hmm, I'm still not certain about the visuals. Still, MSHvSF is the ugliest thing ever made by human hands and MvC2 is, as Iggy noted, a MUGEN stew of leftovers so on the sliding scale of vs games this doesn't look half bad.
Yo, MSHvSF has some great sprites and animation. I think you're going way too far here.
I am... not super excited about Infinite. As someone who really didn't even play that much MvC3, I need to be wary of falling off fighting games altogether. I blame Capcom's shitty support of SF5. Awful matchmaking, rampant rage quitting... the phrase "I'm getting too old for this shit" just keeps coming to mind.
The fact that mutants from X-Men got spanked by humans with super powers, X-Men had to call upon Marvel Super Heroes to fight the humans of street fighter was a good reason what MSHvsSF was also pretty cool.
I think MvC lost my love for fighting games after part 2 came out. I liked it at first. But after CvS came out, I preferred that better. It had, somewhat, better visuals and more diverse characters doing different things other then flying up doing same button attacks. But more people wanted to play MvC and looked at CvS like "meh." So new players at the time preferred MvC with old sprites and 3-d backgrounds.
Lately, I really don't feel love for MvC and so called new and veteran fighting game fans. They criticized KOF when the new visuals and not so good system with KOF XII. Once they released XIII with great gameplay, they looked at it like "meh." Now with KOFXIV, good gameplay cheap visuals, criticism continues. So I am looking like, but you loved MvC 2 which was practically the same thing if not worst?
So I don't think is the "I am to old thing." Don't let Capcom ruin your fighting game love because its really producing for the masses. Who makes money of niche groups? No one but they are still out there for us.
Long Live I AM!
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| | "Re(5):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Fri 28 Apr 04:55
As a Capcom player who never read a superhero comic until way after MvC2 was released and thus don't know any of these characters, the MvC series has always been a way to see Capcom characters that have fallen off the face of the Earth. Strider! Classic Rockman, not X! Captain Commando! MvC1 was a treat. Unplayable, but a treat.
2 butchered too many lovable Vampire character to be remembered fondly by people with good taste, but at least it was silly and fun to play. Post-apocalyptic basketball as we know it would never have existed without it, and we would all be worse off.
3 was the first game of the series that was as fun to play as the Marvel games pre-versus-Capcom, and it had an amazing gallery of Capcom characters, so hopefully Infinite will measure up with this.
Official gameplay video
Good: I'm more excited than I should be for the gem system.
Good: The partner system looks amazingly versatile, and I can't wait to see how many silly things people will craft out of it. Combined with the gems, it seems that everything is broken already, and that's a huge plus for this game.
It's OK, we have SF5 next to it, we can enjoy a guilty treat.
Ambivalent: the control scheme has been reverted to MvC2:
LP HP ASSIST
LK HK GEM
Ambivalent: looks meh, but the series has never been a looker after MvC1.
Not so great: too many Marvel characters but what can you do.
Super not so great: no crossplay. I just need to find a partner for PC since online there will probably be deserted after a month or so.
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| | "Re(4):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Fri 28 Apr 11:47:
quote:
Hmm, I'm still not certain about the visuals. Still, MSHvSF is the ugliest thing ever made by human hands and MvC2 is, as Iggy noted, a MUGEN stew of leftovers so on the sliding scale of vs games this doesn't look half bad.
Yo, MSHvSF has some great sprites and animation. I think you're going way too far here.
While I wouldn't call it the "ugliest thing," MvSF is certainly lacking in the "things made specifically for MvSF" department so I have a hard time giving it credit for its own sprites.
Okay this is a tough one, but... I did think Sakura's diagonal-upwards hadouken super was a neat addition.
I played this game a lot in my University arcade so I guess it makes me reflexively want to defend it.
EDIT: Ah, I am really stretching here, but who could forget the beautiful Norimaro?
Answer:
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
Pretty much everyone?
End of Spoiler
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[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Fri 28 Apr 11:53] |
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| "Re(5):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Fri 28 Apr 17:45
Okay, MvSF did add Sakura's "Kei hold my bag" intro which is hands down my favorite fight intro in the entire series, so I'll give it that.
Speaking of Norimaro, if nobody here has had a look at some of the cut content found in MvSF it's a bit worth checking out:
https://tcrf.net/Marvel_Super_Heroes_vs._Street_Fighter_(Arcade)
Some highlights:
-Norimaro was apparently set for an international release but something prevented it from happening late in development.
-Also he had some kind of move where he thought about a random Capcom character in a lewd pose and got a nosebleed. Included among the random characters he could imagine were Anita and Zangief.
-One of his cut winposes is... a bad thing. Don't be bad kids and imitate Norimaro.
-Karin was set to appear in the game in sprite form, probably in Sakura's victory pose or maybe in her ending. Her sprite, though, is a head swap of Sakura and not the Zero 3 one you all know. Karin in Sakura's seifuku is an interesting sight.
Anyway, what were we talking about? Oh yeah, MvC:I. Well seeing how much they are going to simplify the game I think it's safe to say that Capcom is going to be absolutely shameless in their pandering to the casual crowd with this game. Because Marvel is far more enormous now than they were the last 7 times Capcom worked with them, and Capcom needs that money. Badly. I wouldn't be surprised if this ultimately resulted in complete betrayal of the hardcore Mahvel tournament scene. Infinite dogeza to Casual Jimmy Hulkhands!
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| | "Re(6):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Fri 28 Apr 20:46
quote:
Okay, MvSF did add Sakura's "Kei hold my bag" intro which is hands down my favorite fight intro in the entire series, so I'll give it that.
I would love it if the next time we have a Sakura vs Karin fight, they are synchronized with a "hold my bag please" animation, one with Kei, the other with Shibazaki.
These cut things remind me of the 8 cut characters for MvC3 (X, Gene, Octopus and... someone else from Marvel). Apparently, Octopus was the one the most advanced, including voice and animation... I'd love to see what they came up with for that game.
And also Gene in any form.
quote:
Well seeing how much they are going to simplify the game I think it's safe to say that Capcom is going to be absolutely shameless in their pandering to the casual crowd with this game.
Honestly, I think the controls for MvC:I already showed that the casualisation of the game is 100% marketing fluff.
I keep bringing back Persona as an example of a very complex game with very casual controls, but the 6 button layout and amount of stuff you can do with the gems (which gem do you pick?) and partner (I need to play two characters now?) is already completely overwhelming compared to "I just pick Batman".
Like they tried to convince everyone that MvC3 would be easier to play, and then SFxT would have casual controls...
The Marketing spins never ends, never amounts to anything, but the FGC likes to scream on the top of their lungs how any deviation from the latest formula is a betrayal of family values.
Their sales objective for MvCI is 2 millions, which I find suspiciously low. I guess they low-balled after SF5, but it would be a disaster if a game with the brand power of the MCU only sold 2M worldwide, after a holiday season on top of that.
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| | "Re(7):Behold! MvC Infinite Gameplay video" , posted Sat 29 Apr 06:54
quote:
-Karin was set to appear in the game in sprite form, probably in Sakura's victory pose or maybe in her ending. Her sprite, though, is a head swap of Sakura and not the Zero 3 one you all know. Karin in Sakura's seifuku is an interesting sight.
I'd choose her over Dan or Dhalsim for the MSHvsSF roster any time, that's for sure. But that game's roster is kinda messy anyway (why Capcom even considered Shuma-Gorath and Omega Red for the game is beyond my imagination, even if we consider the sprite recycling).
Oh well... speaking of fighting games featuring super heroes, Injustice 2 finally confirmed a certain someone (who would obviously be in it, anyway).
I wonder how NRS will justify his presence, though...
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
...then again, this doubt also applies to Green Arrow, Black Canary and Scarecrow (plus Damian Wayne back as Robin and looking younger than in Injustice 1), and that didn't prevent either of them from being there as well.
End of Spoiler
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "NetherRealms Anims look weird cos of IK" , posted Wed 3 May 16:47:
quote:
Interesting dissection of why Netherrealms fighting game animations look odd
Ahhhhh! Nice!
Yeah the center of gravity and stiff limbs thing always bugged the heck out of me. I agree with most of the criticisms in the video. On top of all that, something else that kills me about NetherRealm Studios and a lot of modern game animation general is their constant use of "belly out" poses.
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/LYuLppOlL8pIT5u6TXzAbzsTQmQ=/0x0:900x506/1600x900/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/1947099/1338706956_7.0.jpeg
It looks so silly!
I dunno why people think it looks cool!
Anyway, probably the biggest reason why so many games have bad animation is that they rely on inverse kinematics too much.
There are 2 main ways to rig a 3d character:
Forward Kinematics (FK) - This is the simplest way to do things. You simply move and rotate the joints and they effect the other joints down the chain. So if you move the shouder, it displaces the upper arm, which displaces the forearm, which displaces the hand, which displaces the fingers etc.
This is like posing an action figure in real life.
Inverse Kinematics (IK) - This is the reverse, where you move the extremity and the rest of the rig compensates in an attempt to follow. So for instance, moving the fist will cause a chain reaction all the way down the arm to the body. The fist goes first and the body follows.
This is like posing a puppet on strings.
There are pros and cons to both, and any proper modern game will switch between both methods on the same rig. It's not hard to do.
The most common use case for IK is on a characters feet. Lets say a character is standing in place and bouncing up and down a little and their feet are flat. If you have IK turned on the feet, they'll stay planted while you simply move the body up and down. The knees will bend naturally and you don't have to worry about the feet sliding all over the place.
IK makes sense here because in real life, your feet would be bearing all your weight like that.
IK is also really useful for walking and running because again, gravity is at work. The feet bear all the weight and they have to slide across an even flat surface in most cases. IK helps prevent the characters feet from sliding through the ground (without IK you'd have to do a lot more adjusting to make sure this doesn't happen).
So where is IK not so useful? In striking attacks. I'm certain they're primarily using IK to animate the attacks in the Netherrrealm games. All the punches and kicks look so weak and stiff because of this.
They are moving like puppets and strings, dragged by their extremeties, but in real life, all your power comes from your core. To throw a decent punch you have to have your feet properly bearing your weight, then you torque your core, shoot that motion through your chest, into your shoulders, through your arm and finally into the fist. Each successive rotation makes the attack stronger. This is totally absent from most of NetherRealms animations.
Because they are simply grabbing the extremities and pulling them forward then letting the IK rig pull the rest of the body along, that's why the poses are so weird. That's why they're constantly off balance and often have their joints locked straight.
It's a lazy way to animate and, well, it's worked for them. Like the video said, 5 million in sales. Now the best selling fighting game in the world. People are OK with this.
Whatta world, whatta world!
I wouldn't peg this on lack of ability on the animators though. I'm certain they could do better, but it's quite possible that they're not allowed to.
It's heartbreaking how often I hear from my fellow animators on big game or Hollywood projects that go "I can't do my best on this production. There are too many obstacles preventing me from doing so. I can only produce mediocre work."
This is why I'm so impressed when a game actually comes together really well. There are sooooo many steps in production, so many opportunities to royally screw things up. It's a goshdarn miracle when a really really good looking game gets made!
Addendum:
You ever notice how when 3d game characters get hit, they tend to fly backwards like this?
http://www.gamekyo.com/Webmasters/Images/9849620120713_182703_4_big.jpg
[url=https://assets.vg247.com/current//2012/11/dcf_deathstroke_vs_greenarrow_arkham_i.jpg
]https://assets.vg247.com/current//2012/11/dcf_deathstroke_vs_greenarrow_arkham_i.jpg
That's because they're being pulled backwards by their body control, but the IK on their hands and feet keep their limbs dragging behind them.
I mean, it's not a bad "getting hit" pose. It happens in 2d games too. But trust me, if you've worked with a 3d rig you'll know how easy it is to make this happen.
IK is also the reason the "belly out" pose is so ubiquitous. The root control of most character rigs is going to be around the hips and often times everything else is dragged behind it.
Keep an eye out for it in future games that you play. Often times motions will start from the hips, which is correct, but then everything will drag behind the hips, rather than being pushed forward by them.
Just think to yourself "does the character look liek they're being pulled around by strings?" If so then it's IK heavy animation.
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Wed 3 May 20:26] |
| | "Re(1):NetherRealms Anims look weird cos of IK" , posted Thu 4 May 09:02
quote:
So where is IK not so useful? In striking attacks. I'm certain they're primarily using IK to animate the attacks in the Netherrrealm games. All the punches and kicks look so weak and stiff because of this.
I had always felt that Netherrealm was intentionally aping the look of their old 2D digitized photo animation.
As such, my first reaction to the idea of laying the blame at IK was to not believe it. Particularly since Netherrealm has shown itself capable of more fluid animation, both in its CG as well as in some of its characters' moves.
But watching the video, and paying close attention to the examples in the IK section, made me a believer. That isn't a stylistic choice, not unless someone high up simply decided that IK just happened to create the exact "weak, static pose" look that he wanted. It is just relying entirely on IK to drag characters into the desired positions.
Looking at it like that, it feels a lot more like a cost-saving mechanic. Or perhaps that the game itself is the lowest priority, and Netherrealm simply doesn't have enough skilled animators to also properly fully animate a large roster 3D fighting game in addition to creating a full length CG movie (story mode CG) as well as substantial amounts of mini-videos (fatalities and the like). So instead they just have everyone doing the actual game animation uniformly use the simplest method possible, something which takes very little time and which anyone can do.
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| | "Re(3):SNR 2 and Japan Favorite Fighting Game" , posted Sat 20 May 02:51
quote:
Uhmmm...what kind of sorcery is this? I can't see a single NeoGeo KOF in the list xD But oh well KOF made it to the top 20, and at a fairly high place at that, so I shouldn't complain. Very happy to see Cafe favorites like Hokuto No Ken a title I still haven't tried... and Justice Gakuen. It's interesting how some franchises have multiple entries.
I guess the reason for that is that players would need to have a consensus of which NeoGeo KOF was the best one to vote on it. And if I'm not mistaken, KOF'98, KOF'97 and KOF'96 are all quite well-liked, so maybe the votes split among them (and/or even among other entries of the franchise) and thus neither had enough votes to reach the top 20.
As for this list, I'm not surprised of SFII being in first place (I recently ran into a SFII arcade cabinet and was amazed at how fun it still is to play), but the fact that four Street Fighter games made it into the list including SFV (despite all the negative comments and reception it got) was unexpected - if any franchise would be able to get more than one entry in it, I'd expect it to be Tekken due to its popularity. DarkStalkers and Rival Schools appearing was also a surprise - a great one, in fact. Revive these series, Capcom, please!
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "Re(5):SNR 2 and Japan Favorite Fighting Game" , posted Sun 21 May 14:50:
quote:
This list is full of questions.
Well, for me the most interesting and relevant information in that piece was about the profile of Famitsu readers who answer surveys in 2017. (94% Male 6% Female. Six percent were in their teens, 43 percent in their 20s, 42 percent in their 30s, 8 percent in their 40s, and 1 percent in their 50s.)
Only two titles in the Top 20 have sold a million copies (or even half of that), Street Fighter II and Virtua Fighter 2. The most popular fighting game series in Japan is not represented (Smash Bros). The most popular fighting games of the past decade either (Persona 4 Ultimate and JoJo). More than half of the games on the list were recently in Famitsu, either because they are new games (SF5, Rev2, Tekken 7) or thanks to recent/upcoming re-releases (MOTW, SF2). So, caveats apply.
I find it interesting and sad that so few SNK games are reresented but the average age of participants in the survey would imply many of them have missed the brief window (1992~1998) during which SNK fighting games were mainstream in Japan. It's also a sobering reminder of the popularity of Capcom fighters vs SNK fighters in Japan.
I am more puzzle by the result of Street Fighter III 3rd Strike vs Street Fighter V. Why did such a relatively obscure title in Japan beat the most recent game? If anything, I would have rather expected Street Fighter Zero 3 it the top 5, since it was much more popular than either title.
Même Narumi est épatée !
[this message was edited by chazumaru on Sun 21 May 15:25] |
| | "Re(6):SNR 2 and Japan Favorite Fighting Game" , posted Mon 22 May 00:32
quote:
I am more puzzle by the result of Street Fighter III 3rd Strike vs Street Fighter V. Why did such a relatively obscure title in Japan beat the most recent game? If anything, I would have rather expected Street Fighter Zero 3 it the top 5, since it was much more popular than either title.
I'd guess it is a matter of second-hand knowledge. Third Strike was touted for years as one of the best fighting games ever made, to the point that people who had never played it (or never liked it) would still put it on a list of "best fighting games".
SF5 doesn't have that support. SF5 appears to have a pretty bad reputation outside of its player base, leaving it just its active audience to praise it. Even within its active audience, you have a chunk who'd at least think twice before including it on a positive list.
As for SF3 over Street Fighter Zero 3... With a limit of three votes, even an SF-exclusive fan would have to pick and choose between SF titles to list, while other voters might have intentionally limited themselves to a single Street Fighter title. SFZ3 might have simply lost out among the other SF options. SF2 is still the most memorable, SF3 is arguably the most praised, SF5 is the most recent, and SF4 is the most recent for people who weren't satisfied with SF5.
SFZ3 is a bit of a distant memory in comparison to the others. Its popularity advantage has likely been eroded with time. Some of its fans have moved on from gaming entirely, while others have moved on to find newer favorite games (whether SF or not). Mind, if Capcom had announced a new "Ultra SF3" (like it did with Ultra SF2 for the Switch), you'd very likely see SF3Z placing pretty high on the poll, just because the game would be placed back into people's minds.
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| PSN: zonepharaoh
XBL: n/a
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: zonepharaoh
| "Re(8): Favorite Fighting Games, Action Games" , posted Mon 22 May 08:58:
quote:
I just wonder how many of the people who voted for Third Strike thought they were voting for Zero 3.
I can only imagine the horror of buying 3S by accident when expecting a game that is actually fun, only to be met with the Dark Destroyer of the golden age of 2D fighters instead. "But at least you can enjoy the pretty animation!"
The poll results are fairly incomprehensible, and as Chaz noticed, that is a very strange demographic. Where are the kids? And why aren't the adults more nostalgic?
Split votes among 90s favorites is the only way to explain mediocre series entries like SFV, Soul Calibur 5, and Ultra SFIV, while still somehow maintaining such a burning sense of Justice. I get the absence of Tekken: most 3D games, Virtua and Soul Calibur 1&2 aside, don't age well, and even if millions of people loved Tekken 2 and 3, no one in their right mind would play them now. 4 is out since it's terrible, leaving only 5 and 6 for Tekken 7 to contend with, I guess.
This English article alone is predictably shoddy because it's Kotaku and misleads with wrong/mixed information on Justice. It's the okay-but-widely-enjoyed DC Moero Justice Gakuen ("Project Justice") and not the superior-burning-youth-dating-sim PS1 Justice Gakuen ("Rival Schools").
You can see similarly nutty results on action games. Sure, Super Mario Bros. at number 1, followed by the new Zelda and then Nier Automata. But Devil May Cry without Mario 3? Oboro Muramasa without Dragon's Crown? "WHAT'S GOING ON IN THIS TOWN?!"
1. Super Mario Bros.
2. Zelda: Breath of the Wild
3. Nier Automata (EXCELLENT)
4. Ookami
5. Bloodborne
6. Dark Souls III
7. Kingdom Hearts (!?!?!?)
8. Bayonetta (<3)
9. Super Mario 64
10. Monster Hunter Portable 2nd G
11. Metal Gear Solid 3
12. Kingdom Hearts 2
13. Devil May Cry
13. Metal Gear Solid
15. Hoshi No Kirby Super Deluxe
16. Zelda Ocarina of Time
17. Metal Gear Solid 5
18. Oboro Muramasa
19. Super Mario World
20. Rockman 2
人間はいつも私を驚かせてくれる。不思議なものだな、人間という存在は．．．
[this message was edited by Maou on Mon 22 May 13:27] |
| | "Re(9): Favorite Fighting Games, Action Games" , posted Tue 23 May 03:49:
quote:
The poll results are fairly incomprehensible, and as Chaz noticed, that is a very strange demographic. Where are the kids? And why aren't the adults more nostalgic?
After checking on this odd poll, it all makes sense.
- You didn't have to be a Famitsu reader to vote for this poll. It was taken online so anyone could cast in their favorites.
- However Famitsu printed the results only on their magazine, which is why there's no link on Kotaku.
- Since Famitsu didn't give out lottery prizes to voters (which they would've done if the polls were taken in their magazines), only the hardcore fighting game fans cared enough to cast in their votes. What's more, in this poll you need to actually type in the name of each game which makes it even more of a hassle and less prone for casual fans to vote.
- As a result,
i. Casual votes for games during the mid-90s aren't there
ii. Hardcore fans from the Tougeki era and beyond are probably the majority of voters
iii. A good share of the voters are probably stream monsters, which explains why titles without much presence like Ultimate Marvel are getting votes while other major hits like SFZ3 aren't in the ranks. The game just doesn't get streamed at all, unlike 3rdStrike which has one of the biggest annual tournaments.
On a side note, SFV is good for entry-level players but beyond that it becomes a game with too little freedom for entertainment. I've had at least two comrades who've more or less retired from fighting games because of it.
[this message was edited by Professor on Tue 23 May 03:54] |
| | "Re(10): Favorite Fighting Games, Action Games" , posted Tue 23 May 04:18
quote:
After checking on this odd poll, it all makes sense.
- You didn't have to be a Famitsu reader to vote for this poll. It was taken online so anyone could cast in their favorites.
- However Famitsu printed the results only on their magazine, which is why there's no link on Kotaku.
- Since Famitsu didn't give out lottery prizes to voters (which they would've done if the polls were taken in their magazines), only the hardcore fighting game fans cared enough to cast in their votes. What's more, in this poll you need to actually type in the name of each game which makes it even more of a hassle and less prone for casual fans to vote.
- As a result,
i. Casual votes for games during the mid-90s aren't there
ii. Hardcore fans from the Tougeki era and beyond are probably the majority of voters
iii. A good share of the voters are probably stream monsters, which explains why titles without much presence like Ultimate Marvel are getting votes while other major hits like SFZ3 aren't in the ranks. The game just doesn't get streamed at all, unlike 3rdStrike which has one of the biggest annual tournaments.
-- Message too long, Autoquote has been Snipped --
Excellent analysis Professor! This makes perfect sense now. It looks like you've gotten to the bottom of things.
quote:
On a side note, SFV is good for entry-level players but beyond that it becomes a game with too little freedom for entertainment. I've had at least two comrades who've more or less retired from fighting games because of it.
As for SFV driving people to retirement...I'm afraid I've become a victim myself. After burning out on V, all I've done since with any fighting game is mess around in training mode to satisfy my ego (getting dust loops to work with Baiken in Rev 2 was like slamming my head into a concrete wall for three hours).
My big worry is that I'm just getting old. I can only fantasize that a new SamSho might rekindle my love of fighting games.
/ / /
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| | "Re(4):Re(10): Favorite Fighting Games, Action" , posted Wed 24 May 10:13:
quote:
Thanks for the explanation on Famitsu's poll Professor. It seems it was an odd collection method that created odd results.
On a side note, SFV is good for entry-level players but beyond that it becomes a game with too little freedom for entertainment. I've had at least two comrades who've more or less retired from fighting games because of it.
They managed to survive the Yun Wars of 2012, the Elena Stalemate and the great Mai Drought but SF5 is what pushed them over the edge? It's funny to find that one thing that finally acts as a tipping point.
With SFV, the developers were aiming to make the game "easy to learn, a lifetime to master" by simplifiying the execution barrier. The only problem is, the system in Street Fighter V makes the gameplay way too simple that there's not much to do in terms of "lifetime to master" and everyone's movement ends up looking relatively similar.
To add on, whenever there's something discovered that might make some characters move more unique, the developers hammer them down most likely due to it not being in their original blueprint, which is like the complete opposite to what developers have been doing since the SF2 era; keep it in if it adds more flavor, balance it out if it breaks the game. SF4 had a bit of this problem too, but it seems to be a bigger subject in SFV, probably because the developers seem to show signs that they're lost about what to do with the game (they nerf a move and then revert it back, they overpower something else during the process, etc) and also because the e-sports movement has made the so-called "Pro" players have more of a voice and they're complaining a lot.
Of course they complain but they don't actually switch and main in another fighting game because they need to stick with a Capcom game to keep their sponsorship/stay Professional. In that sense, general players have the luxury of maining in another title, let it be Guilty Gear, KOF, etc, but seem to likewise complain and keep on playing, or just retire instead.
It also doesn't help that the DLC characters for the second year weren't too unimpressive, starting off with the Lion King Gouki/Akuma and most recently the biceps Eminem. Fans that bought the season pass were basically paying for a 20 dollar grab bag, and I fear whether they'll be as supportive if there's a season 3.
I think though, the biggest difference from the SF4 era is that now it's the SNS era, and people get influenced by each other's voices a bit too much. As a result the more casual e-sports fans that don't really have that deep a grasp on fighting games end up echoing what stronger players say, even if they don't completely understand the underlying meanings.
[this message was edited by Professor on Wed 24 May 10:44] |
| PSN: gekijmo
XBL: gekijmo5
Wii: n/a
STM: n/a
CFN: n/a
| "Re(1):Injustice questions" , posted Wed 24 May 23:36
quote:
So has anybody tried Injustice 2? Any thoughts on the animation? Does it look better than other NRS efforts? Is it any fun to play? How does it play? The matches I've watched all make it look like it is very zone heavy. Are there multiple ways to play or is it mostly about hanging out and tossing things at your opponent?
I got Injustice 2 last week and have mostly been grinding the character customization/multiverse stuff.
As far as the animation goes, it is by and large Injustice 1. Yes, they improved some animations like Batman's neutral pose, but it is about as stiff as before. Where the game really improved visually are the character models and lighting. Facial animation of the characters, specifically Harley, is top notch. The lighting, although good, gets really distracting in dark stages. There is a stage at night on the street that has three or four different lighting schemes. One is an overbearing red flare and another is an overbearing helicopter spot light, both of which are kind of a hindrance.
Gameplay wise they added a few things that help with defense like a meter burn roll/dash to help get in, meter burn air recovery so you have a "guaranteed" way to escape without risking a bet in a clash and I think a new meter burn push block.
So if you enjoyed the first one you will probably like this and might like it better since they improved the flow of a few things like clashes and stage transitions since they don't seem to take as long as before. I still don't like the flow of most supers. Specifically those that take you to a new screen/dimension. I think the only exception to that is Darkseid's. For some reason it feels like it is the most straight forward of all of those types of supers.
I know Deadshot zoning appears to be the hot topic, but from what I see Atrocitus is a nice counter to that. I think I will try to learn him before I go online. I don't think the stage intractables will be as prevalent in this game as the last. I remember the pig in the slaughter house being a huge point in that stage and there is nothing like that in Injustice 2 from what I remember. The big problems that contribute to stuff like Deadshot are the width of stages and how bad dashing is outside of the meter burn roll.
As far as the character customization goes, it really feels like the "World of Warcraft" approach of taking stuff that has been done in different games and combining it to something that works.
I think character appearance options in "loot boxes" started off in Virtua Fighter 4. DBZ Budokai allowed you to equip different moves with Capsules. SFA3 had World Tour mode which allowed you in level up stats for characters. I think I may have seen it first in DB GT Final Bout. Did they let you level up characters in Tobal?
Injustice 2 combines all these things fairly nicely. They thankfully don't allow you to go too crazy with character appearances like with Virtua Fighter 5 or the newer Tekkens as I feel like some of the weirder options in those games interferes with the character silhouettes and can be gaudy. But at the same time some of the gear just doesn't seem too different. Sometimes it is a different set of wrist bands that barely make a difference visually.
I know you can level up gear so if you like the appearance you can make it usable in a higher level, but I haven't gotten around to doing that yet.
I really just wish I could get some classic Spandex looking costumes. One or two skins are different characters with Spandex comic costumes that stick out from the rest of the cast, but are visually appealing. Jay Garrick for Flash and Vixen for Cheetah.
FYI, if you get it, use your in game currency to just buy BRONZE loot boxes. The drop rate of "epic" gear is about the same and the price difference between that and gold loot boxes just doesn't justify getting the 3 or 4 extra items.
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| | "Re(2):Re(10):SFII for Switch, Eagle for XbOne" , posted Mon 29 May 22:43
In other news, a teaser shown yesterday confirms Eagle as the last (at least for now) character in Killer Instinct. For those unfamiliar with him, he's Thunder's brother (keeping up KI's tradition of siblings, after Jago/Orchid and Maya/Mira).
The teaser is the only thing shown so far, but the developers have confirmed that unlike Kilgore and Shin Hisako, Eagle doesn't reuse assets from other characters, being developed from scratch, and will have a retro costume. The teaser itself seems to show him as an archer, indicating he'll likely be a long-range fighter unlike Thunder.
You know, it's quite baffling that Killer Instinct was released in 2013 and I'm still more interested on its news than on any other current fighting game...
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
|
| | "Re(1):Rumor leak of MvCI roster" , posted Thu 1 Jun 06:16:
quote:
Capcom
Arthur
Chris
Chun-Li
Dante
Firebrand
Jedah
Monster Hunter
Morrigan
Nemesis
Ryu
Spencer
Strider Hiryu
X
I mean, I guess this is believable by some stretch of the imagination? Still, I don't know about this. The Capcom side seems a little suspect. For this to make sense, I would WILDLY SPECULATE that most/all of the following would be true:
Arthur and Firebrand?
Initial thought: Capcom is bringing back Ghosts 'n Goblins.
Really? The last reboot (Maximo) kind of fizzled out uh, a decade ago?
I actually like both of these characters, but why would they stick both Arthur and Firebrand in a game with such a small roster otherwise? GnG represents an equal percentage of the cast as Street Fighter? Again, really?
The only logical conclusion: Coming soon-- a new Gargoyle's Quest where Arthur is the final boss.
Nemesis?
Initial thought: Nemesis will appear in a new Resident Evil game
To be honest, I forgot this ugly mofo was in MvC3. I mean, why him? Why not Mayor Mike Haggar? I mean, they haven't remade RE2 yet, why put in the headlining baddie from RE3? And seriously... this is Capcom's choice for a heavy?
The only logical conclusion: Umbrella has made more... "Nemesi" and, following the success of RE7, the next RE game is all about..."Nemesises" busting through walls and scaring the shit out of you in VR. Sales target: 6 MILLION.
Spencer???
Initial thought: Capcom is on a mission to re-reboot every failed reboot... third boot's the charm!
Was the "BIONIC! ARM!" super really that impactful? Like, could they do anything with this license to actually sell games? The last game two games flopped! What the hell are they thinking?
The only obvious conclusion: GRIN, the developers of the 2009 Bionic Commando, snuck a clause into their contract that stipulates their version of Spencer appear will in any subsequent "VS" titles developed by Capcom forevermore.
Jedah?
Initial thought: Darkstalkers is coming back you guys! For real this time!!
Don't get me wrong, Jedah is cool... but how the hell are they going to animate him properly in 3D? Would they really pick a weird, lanky demon-guy over a nearly nude catgirl? Isn't this character a little strange for a game that's going so ultra-mainstream? Unless they really are doing a new Darkstalkers, why would they do this? There are a lot of questions, but only one obvious answer.
The only logical conclusion:
Ono lied to a bunch of people again.
Monster Hunter?
Initial thought: Wait, this makes perfect sense. List confirmed to be 100% accurate.
The only logical conclusion: MH series is boosted to 100 million sales worldwide with newfound popularity in the West. The character "Monster Hunter" goes on appears in appear in the film Guardians of the Galaxy 3. His catchphrase, "So tasty!", is repeated by children in the street as they happily snack on cross-promotional fruit gummies.
/ / /
[this message was edited by Mosquiton on Thu 1 Jun 06:18] |
| | "Re(3):Rumor leak of MvCI roster" , posted Thu 1 Jun 22:56
quote:
I was under the impression that the folks in charge of Monster Hunter weren't fond of having a player character in crossover games, since those are meant to reflect individual players, and as diverse as the playstyles the game enables... I guess they got overruled.
Well, I guess Capcom needs to pull any big cards they can... and since their only franchises still standing besides MH are Street Fighter and Resident Evil (neither of which is doing as well as they were expected to be, right?), they probably don't have other choices.
Anyway, this list is really disappointing. Not only is the roster smaller than the "vanilla" versions of MvC3 and SFxT, but many of the characters from both sides aren't really that interesting.
It's also curious how, with some exceptions, most of the roster seems to consist of conventional superhero archetypes. One of the things I really enjoyed in MvC1 and especially in MvC2 was to see how different Marvel and Capcom were from each other back then, the former with the conventional superbeings while the latter included cute robotic children, a schoolgirl, a pathetic man in a pink gi, a cute girl piloting a mecha suit, a pudgy, cartoony plant-man with a Mexican hat... this visual contrast was amazing and helped to show the game was a crossover between two different universes (unlike, say, a Marvel/DC crossover, where someone unfamiliar with their characters would have a hard time figuring out from which universe each character is). Sadly, it seems Capcom is betting mostly on their more conventional characters - and with Marvel pushing characters like Rocket Raccoon and their child/teen superheroes, the difference between both companies is disappearing...
It's also sad to see the X-Men absent from this roster (again, assuming this list is real) - but in this case, I blame Marvel and Disney, not Capcom.
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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| | "Solution to Rage Quitting from King of Glory" , posted Fri 2 Jun 16:14
My brother just visited me from China, where a MOBA called King of Glory has taken the country by storm. Apparently something like 70% of his social and business contacts (men and women) are actively playing it. It's huuuuge. It's basically League of Legends streamlined for the phone. Some are calling it a rip off, which is stupid, because the publisher Tencent OWNS League of Legends. Anyhow, it has some really cool ideas that could be implemented in fighting games.
One of the neatest things about it is that, if your connection drops, you don't just sit there and die. If you get logged out, the computer takes over until you get back in the game. It doesn't play at a super high level, but it does enough to try and keep you alive until you come back.
I think this is a super cool idea that could be implemented in fighting games (and basically anything else with online play). So if someone's connection legitimately drops or they rage quit, maybe the computer can take over. Furthermore, maybe the computer can be modelled off of your behavior. I think a lot of fighting games have already done this years ago. I believe an Amiibo with someone's trained AI won a small local Smash Tourney a while back.
Anyway, just thought it was a neat idea. Also, watch out for this game in general:
王者荣耀 (King of the Glory) from Tencent. Very well made. A MOBA that really works on phones.
(I still hate MOBAs tho haha)
www.art-eater.com
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| | "Re(1):Solution to Rage Quitting from King of" , posted Fri 2 Jun 17:22:
quote:
One of the neatest things about it is that, if your connection drops, you don't just sit there and die. If you get logged out, the computer takes over until you get back in the game. It doesn't play at a super high level, but it does enough to try and keep you alive until you come back.
It's a very interesting idea but I'm not sure how well it'll work for 2D fighting games. It can be more fun to beat on a CPU than to simply get a disconnect message, but there's two issues-
1/ Oh, how fun it'll be if we could actually play against AIs that can mimic human movement! It's extremely hard in 2D fighting games. There's been cases where developers have tried, but nothing impressive's come out of them. Humans simply move too analog, and they also do the complete opposite and make precise decisions that are extremely situational. I wonder if there'll ever come a time when developers will be able to program learning algorithms for that.
2/ On the other hand if the CPU moves with preprogrammed AI, it'll be pretty much what we're facing in sigle player modes right now: balanced through inhuman accuracy and relexes. I think players in general will get pissed if they lose to a CPU that moves beyond the capabilities of a human. Of course that can be toned down, but then you'll end up with a really weak CPU.
[this message was edited by Professor on Fri 2 Jun 17:41] |
| | "Re(2):Solution to Rage Quitting from King of" , posted Fri 2 Jun 17:44:
quote:
One of the neatest things about it is that, if your connection drops, you don't just sit there and die. If you get logged out, the computer takes over until you get back in the game. It doesn't play at a super high level, but it does enough to try and keep you alive until you come back.
It's a very interesting idea but I'm not sure how well it'll work for 2D fighting games. It can be more fun to beat on a CPU than to simply get a disconnect message, but there's two issues-
1/ It's extremely hard to make mimic human movements through AI in 2D fighting games. There's been cases where developers have tried, but nothing impressive's come out of them. Humans simply move too analog, but they sometimes do the complete opposite and make precise decisions that are extremely situational. I wonder if there'll ever come a time when developers will be able to program learning algorithms for that.
2/ If the CPU moves with preprogrammed AI, it'll most likely be balanced through inhuman accuracy and relexes. I think players in general will get pissed if they lose to a CPU that moves beyond the capabilities of a human. Of course that can be toned down, but then you'll end up with a really weak CPU.
Hmmmm good points. I guess this works better for MOBAs where it's harder to tell if your opponent is human or not BECAUSE OF THEIR INFERIOR MECHANICS >:D
Spoiler (Highlight to view) -
(I'm just trying to troll Spoon at this point)
End of Spoiler
www.art-eater.com
[this message was edited by nobinobita on Fri 2 Jun 18:05] |
| | "Re(3):Solution to Rage Quitting from King of" , posted Sat 3 Jun 04:59
quote:
One of the neatest things about it is that, if your connection drops, you don't just sit there and die. If you get logged out, the computer takes over until you get back in the game. It doesn't play at a super high level, but it does enough to try and keep you alive until you come back.
It's a very interesting idea but I'm not sure how well it'll work for 2D fighting games. It can be more fun to beat on a CPU than to simply get a disconnect message, but there's two issues-
1/ It's extremely hard to make mimic human movements through AI in 2D fighting games. There's been cases where developers have tried, but nothing impressive's come out of them. Humans simply move too analog, but they sometimes do the complete opposite and make precise decisions that are extremely situational. I wonder if there'll ever come a time when developers will be able to program learning algorithms for that.
2/ If the CPU moves with preprogrammed AI, it'll most likely be balanced through inhuman accuracy and relexes. I think players in general will get pissed if they lose to a CPU that moves beyond the capabilities of a human. Of course that can be toned down, but then you'll end up with a really weak CPU.
Hmmmm good points. I guess this works better for MOBAs where it's harder to tell if your opponent is human or not BECAUSE OF THEIR INFERIOR MECHANICS >:D
Fun things:
Blizzard's MOBA, Heroes of the Storm, has this feature. The game I worked at at the previous studio also had this feature! As Professor describes, having really apparent shifts in behaviour modes really breaks the illusion of a real player behind there. A fairly brilliant joke that League of Legends did for April fools is that when you queued into a game, it hid the names of your opponents and labelled them "<Character Name> Bot", as if you had queued into a game against bots. People automatically do stupid and silly things when playing against bots, because the bot AI is easy to take advantage of... it led to some really weird games, where both teams were playing silly, and people going "Wow, the bots are so good now!"
Mobile MOBAs are definitely a thing a good few studios have tried, but hitting on a winning one has been hard. If you remember, Zynga made one! But the cost of user acquisition was crazy high.
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| | "Re(5):Solution to Rage Quitting" , posted Mon 5 Jun 06:59
quote:
I might be wrong about Strike of Kings specifically (I think that's the official Western name 王者荣耀 / "King of Glory" goes by nowadays) but one huge difference between a fighting game and a MOBA is the length of one match, which makes this solution complicated for fighting games. Losing 5 to 10 seconds of control on a fighting game has much bigger implications than losing them in a MOBA.
Indeed, in modern KOF one defensive lapse can lead to >50% of HP lost! SFV is a game where people can die in seconds. Momentum swings are huge and sudden in fighting games, and it'd be kind of funny for a person to disconnect and a much more capable CPU to suddenly take over for that person!
quote:
It should be noted both games are operated by completely different branches of Tencent; so the comment remains valid as long as you understand there is a very good reason why Tencent does nothing about the issue. I am not sure Riot (makers of LOL) is thrilled about the situation but so far they compete on different hardware.
Part of the arrangement of Tencent's acquisition of League of Legends was that Tencent would stay out of the design and direction of League of Legends. Riot's expansion into realms outside of the PC-centric LoL has been extremely slow, which isn't necessarily wrong, but I'm sure even they can see the potential of having LoL-IP mobile games or a mobile rendition of LoL. Riot was extremely wary of the pay-to-win mentality that pervaded a lot of online games popular in China, and though there are definitely balance considerations which have pervaded their character release model which is vital to their monetization strategy, LoL has solidly stood as a successful game in China that isn't pay-to-win.
Elsewhere, Rocket League's world championships are on track to have >200k simultaneous viewers on Twitch. Pretty darn good for any game, let alone an indie game! I imagine that it being timed to happen alongside the Champions League final was no coincidence....
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| | "Re(5):DBZ by ARC - New Trailer" , posted Tue 13 Jun 04:10
quote:
Man, could this game become the most popular fighting game in the world? Think about it. If it actually plays well, it'll be a must have game amongst core fighting gamers. And i mean, it's DBZ! There are millions upon millions of fans across the globe.
Considering the competition, yes it can.
Capcom is failing to keep its fanbase around SFV and MvCI is attracting a lot of negative impressions for the small things we know officially (and not officially) and considering that it should be out supposedly in 3 months (THREE!) I can't see how Capcom can fix that game, especially the graphics.
The game does look fantastic. I'm really happy to see Arc doing so well, I have to imagine they stand to gain a lot from this partnership. As mentioned, the potential audience for this one is a bit bigger than they've had for GG or BB. Huge respect for their technical skills. I'm not the biggest DBZ fan, but I am psyched about seeing Piccolo (I guess they haven't announced any roster yet but I can't imagine they would leave him out).
I kind of like the clash after the KO. A reset may interrupt the flow a bit but I don't think it's a bad idea to prevent runaway momentum. I would like to see some animation variety though. E.g., both characters rapidly parrying blows, the incoming character blasting a projectile that the other character deflects...maybe some character-specific stuff like brief dialogue exchanges.
Obviously gameplay is king, but I feel like DBZ calls for some theatrical intermissions. What if a character could spend meter to power-up/install before the match resumed? Just don't have people spending three bars to deliver a seven-minute monologue (hahah).
/ / /
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| PSN: IkariLoona
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| "Re(6):DBZ by ARC - New Trailer" , posted Tue 13 Jun 17:19
quote:
A nice little reference there by giving Cell Vega's sliding kick
I recall at least one relatively famous Mugen version of Cell from back in the day, based on SNES sprites, having an attack like that - probably to make the most of the available frames of animation, since I don't recall such an attack in the manga or the show, but it's been a while. The Mugen community has a bit of a knack for making omelettes out of eggshells when it comes to making the most of existing sprites, and I can't help but wonder of some professional developers have kept track of what goes on in that world...
The game is looking interesting, but I guess we're still far from a complete cast, what with a lack of Piccollo? I'm curious to see the game's take on Trunks if he makes it...
Is there any solid info on how this new DBZ game's power bar is handled? I'm not heavily into arcsys games, but they seem to reward offensive play, and IIRC GG actually drops your power bar if you play defensively for too long.
DBZ kinda helped to define the notion of powering up that informed concepts like Art of Fighting, so I wonder how that kind of moment will be present in the gameplay, if at all. I can't help but think that in games like AoF the neutral stance should basically be the power-up state, since it's just as motionless and defenseless, so in my mind it would make sense to just drop the power-up command entirely - I'm not sure this'll be the game to do it, but it's a minor tidbit that I figure wouldn't hurt in a style of game where one rarely stands still anyway.
It's also nice to see something giving MvC a run for its money in terms of how battles play out, since those Capcom efforts always felt a bit DBZish anyway - but now I'm a bit concerned that stuff like this may discourage new fighting game efforts not already associated with a long-standing franchises, considering all the current attention this is getting... and yet there hasn't been a full on Capcom-only or Sega-only crossover fighter in ages...
Another minor point on MvCI... is it me or Strider's Grandmaster Meio is looking more like Star Gladiator's Blistein than Meio himself?...
And Arthur's still a midget...
...!!
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| | "Re(2):Re(10):DBZ by ARC - New Trailer" , posted Thu 15 Jun 06:21:
quote:
I tried out the MvCI story demo and I think
Apparently someone mined through the data already!
https://twitter.com/therealzef/status/874794603492372480
...Well, if this information is true, at least we'll have Haggar and Frank West back (I think they weren't in the first list, were they?). I know both of them were already in UMVC3, but hey - I'd choose them over Spencer any day. Seriously, I'm still trying to understand why Capcom thought it was a good idea to bring Spencer back - if they wanted to recycle characters from UMVC3, Vergil, Viewtiful Joe, Felicia and Hsien-Ko would be much, MUCH better options.
---
In other news, Eagle's trailer was shown today for Killer Instinct. And I hate to say this, but I don't really think he looks as interesting as I thought he would be. Hopefully the gameplay streams will change my mind later.
EDIT: I just watched a video of his gameplay, and it did what the trailer failed to do: make me really interested in playing as him. He looks cool, his moves are cool, and I love his music track! (it's a shame that the video doesn't show his full ultra combo and victory action, though)
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
[this message was edited by Just a Person on Sun 18 Jun 10:06] |
| PSN: IkariLoona
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| "Re(10):DBZ by ARC - New Trailer" , posted Thu 15 Jun 17:43
quote:
I tried out the MvCI story demo and I think it would have been a tough sell even before DBZ stole its lunch money. Trying to write a story around fighting game matches is an impossible task so this may not have been the best way to introduce players to the game. As an example, at one point Chun-Li -who looks like a feminine sack of potatoes- yells out "Doctor Strange!" as a squarely built Vincent Price randomly floats onto the screen. That was the scene. It was inexplicable and somewhat silly.
Reminds me of how in the Super Robot Wars OG games the character mention the names of their mechs way too much during attack animations, apparently as a way to try and make sure players remember them in order to reinforce the SRW OG brand compared to the more famous crossover games the wider series is known for - with the Marvel cast appearing to be almost completely based on the movies, something similar might be at play.
Still, according to the leaks a couple of interesting things are at play on the Capcom side:
* IIRC for the previous MvC they didn't want to add a Monster Hunter Hunter out of deference to the idea of keeping player characters unique instead of associating them to a "standard" version that would represent the series, yet apparently an hunter will make it here
* Jedah being the other non-carryover from UMvC3 might be a sign of someone at Capcom pushing really hard for something Darkstalkers-related that isn't one of the girls like before, for once - might mean nothing to the future of the series, but it's yet another blow against the spectre of oblivion... Given what I recall of Vampire Savior's story, it would be neat if the story mode had him put soul infinity gem to interesting use, but MvCI doesn't really seem to support that in terms of gameplay, narrative or corporate synergy...
quote:
As for DBZ one of the issues the series has is that there are several different versions of the characters possible. Years can pass between arcs so some of the characters can age dramatically between fights. The roster could easily be populated with endless variations of two or three characters. So while adult Goku seemed like a safe bet for the default Goku I am a bit surprised they went with that particular version of Gohan. I don't know if what version of Gohan is the most popular but I am glad to see he's dressed like the father who actually raised him instead of the orange jumpsuit of the frequently MIA sperm donor who occasionally shows up in hi
I wouldn't be surprised if some characters got some DLC outfits down the line, at least the likes of Goku and Vegeta have a couple they could resort to - naked folks like Cell and Freezer not so much, unless they resort to alternative forms which are supposed to be canonically weaker - which in turn could open the way for the saiyan characters to be playable with their pre-blond forms, which would look nice for a few, but probably annoying for the animators...
While I'm at it, this feels relevant for the matter at hand.
...!!
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| | "Re(4):Re(10):DBZ by ARC - New Trailer" , posted Fri 16 Jun 04:45
quote:
So he was Firebrand in UMvC3 but now he's Red Arremer? I suppose I can wait until September to find out the actual roster.
Red Arremer is not the problem: it was his name in Japanese in MvC3.
However, Megaman instead of Rockman makes no sense.
Obviously, I'd like more characters, especially Dormamu and Haggar, but it's better to remain cautious.
The numerous videos of actual fights by people who know how to play have made me much more confident about the game. The complains about the graphics aside (after all, it's still the sequel of one of the most hideous fighting game ever made, up there with CFJ), the UI and the roster remain the biggest issues.
The business decision to fill the game with returning characters, and sell the actual new characters as DLC is mindbogglingly stupid, though. I mean, yeah, I'll buy it, sure, but I don't think there's enough me-s to balance all the people who are not going to buy a game with only the most boring characters from the previous game, no PoC and the lowest amount of female characters in any mainstream fighting game in recent history.
Still, next year, the GOTY edition with the finalized roster will be pretty good. The gameplay already looks much more interesting than anything a direct sequel to UMvC3 could have ever been.
As for DBZ, I'm just concerned about how many characters they'll manage to create. GGXrd's process to make characters is notoriously tedious, so I'd be very surprised if they manage to break the 20 characters mark, which might be low for a 3v3 fighter.
On the other hand, the series is full of characters with very similar body types: C17&C18, Goku and Baddak and that new character in Super... That's probably their only chance to expand to a reasonable number.
The final gameplay just has to be good, now.
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| PSN: IkariLoona
XBL: n/a
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| "Re(4):Re(10):DBZ by ARC - New Trailer" , posted Fri 16 Jun 17:48
quote:
A random thought, but has there been any talk of DoA6? The DoA franchise has been merrily chugging along for years now but it has been awhile since DoA5 came out. If nothing else, a new game would give them the opportunity to re-sell all the costume sets.
Not that I know of.
DoA5LR itself seems to have settled on only releasing DLC for its women by now, and even recently delisted a couple of licensed outfit packs, so I figure the game is on its late stages - I do wish it had gotten more attention, considering it handled things like F2P and story mode structure better than most fighting games I've personally experienced.
Curiously, they're now having a Twitter promo collaboration with SNK about their respective games' Steam releases (TN represented their version with Marie Rose and Kula) - so I can't help but wonder if after the VF guests in DoA5 and the seamlesness of Mai as DLC in that game's system, if SNK might be a crossover partner for a sequel.
I've been recently getting some amusing thoughts of KoF's Alice and DoA's Mila cheering on their respective sides in a Terry/Bass match (or arguing who'd top or bottom, you never know with fangirls; I should take a crack at fan art to try and empty my head of such stubborn silly thoughts), so this promo comes up at an interesting time for me.
Kula being in the TN version of the promo could be meaningful if SNK characters in a DoA6 was to be a thing, given their more recent character additions to the DoA5 sub-series, and then there's the characters who got their outfits adapted around the time Mai was added to DoA5LR - IIRC, Yuri, Kasumi and Hinako, all of which could get their styles adapted to the more grounded DoA style (Yuri might be the trickiest given her projectile history, but she's had so many different movesets over the years they could make it work, especially after the Mai adaptation).
...!!
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| | "Re(4):Kamehame-wha?" , posted Thu 22 Jun 09:40
quote:
I'd love to see her there! My concern, though, is that unlike most of the DBZ characters, Mai is absolutely powerless (unless DB Super gave her Saiyajin-like superpowers), right?
In fact, other than Android 18, the only women with decent fighting skills that I remember are Videl, Chichi and Pan - and the first two are still way behind Goku's crew in terms of power, while Pan's situation as a GT character is... complicated.
To be fair, the insane power ramping of the series means that any competitive Dragonball Z game that draws from more than a single story arc already has to play fast and loose with power levels. Every new threat was introduced with the ability to easily crush all the heroes, only for Goku to raise his power to match. And these were permanent power increases, which is why the ramping was so bad.
Krillin and 18 at their peaks couldn't take Perfect Cell. Any form of Buu, and certainly any later form of Buu, should be able to take Cell without effort. Yet people expect to have a roughly balanced Krillin, Cell, and Buu in a DBZ fighting game.
Is it really any sillier to see someone like Chichi or Videl than someone like Nappa? Sure, Nappa would destroy Chichi and Videl. But someone like Frieza or Cell would as easily destroy any of the three.
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| PSN: IkariLoona
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| "Re(4):Kamehame-wha?" , posted Thu 22 Jun 16:58
quote:
Seeing as how Mai has gained a second wind due to Dragon Ball Super she might actually make it in. Since ArcSys probably doesn't want the entire game to be spiky haired guys who scream at each other any female character in the DB world has a decent shot at getting on the roster.
I'd love to see her there! My concern, though, is that unlike most of the DBZ characters, Mai is absolutely powerless (unless DB Super gave her Saiyajin-like superpowers), right?
In fact, other than Android 18, the only women with decent fighting skills that I remember are Videl, Chichi and Pan - and the first two are still way behind Goku's crew in terms of power, while Pan's situation as a GT character is... complicated.
There's always Arale, whose canon status to DB was reiforced not that long ago in Super - toonforce shenanigans are immune to power levels (to some extent the Buus started flirting with those concepts after years of DBZ characters fighting in relatively uniform ways, give or take some signature techniques), she'd help even the gender ratio, and likely make for some amusing moments for anyone just watching matches. She's already got a precedent or two with interacting with the DBZ cast in games...
...!!
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| | "Re(5):Kamehame-wha?" , posted Fri 23 Jun 22:44
quote:
To be fair, the insane power ramping of the series means that any competitive Dragonball Z game that draws from more than a single story arc already has to play fast and loose with power levels. Every new threat was introduced with the ability to easily crush all the heroes, only for Goku to raise his power to match. And these were permanent power increases, which is why the ramping was so bad.
Krillin and 18 at their peaks couldn't take Perfect Cell. Any form of Buu, and certainly any later form of Buu, should be able to take Cell without effort. Yet people expect to have a roughly balanced Krillin, Cell, and Buu in a DBZ fighting game.
Is it really any sillier to see someone like Chichi or Videl than someone like Nappa? Sure, Nappa would destroy Chichi and Videl. But someone like Frieza or Cell would as easily destroy any of the three.
The difference, though, is that Nappa was first introduced as a considerable threat before he was defeated. Chichi and Videl were NEVER presented as capable of keeping up a fight with any DBZ character (the only fight I remember where Videl was involved was a horrible one-sided beatdown where she nearly died).
And the situation is even worse for Mai (at least in her DB incarnation; I don't remember what she did after that), who can't even be considered a fighter. Which is why I suggested that maybe she could "fight" piloting a mecha alongside Pilaf and Shu (you know, like WW7's Politank-Z) - both of whom wouldn't be able to fight any other characters on their own, either. Plus, I just love all three of them and their comical interactions!
Maybe I'm this person right in front of you... nah probably not though.
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Given the English-speaking sphere's preponderance of sarcasm and brutal dislike of anything hokey, it's such a miracle that the series (and all of the 1990s) happened. 
.png)
"Re(1):NetherRealms Anims look weird cos of IK" , posted Thu 4 May 03:17
